Better that Michelle Forbes wasn't in DS9?

[kkt]

She has her reasons, obviously, but she's angry at:

- Dukat. Ok, Dukat is a terrible person (quite frankly, he's a monster) and completely deserves it.
- Quark. Ok, he's a crook.
- The provisional government. Ok, the provisional government is incompetent and corrupt to some extent... or, at least, she perceives it that way. Whilst being part of the administration (as liaison officer to DS9).
- The Federation. Ok, she perceives the Federation as new invaders.
- Sisko, before learning he's space jeebus. Ok, he represents the Federation.
- The station computers.
- I forget who else. Long time I haven't seen DS9 (at least in its entirety). It just seems that in every scene she's angry and yelling. I found it grating.

Sure, she has her reasons (some very valid, some less so), but she always throws a tantrum whenever something doesn't go her way. IRL, people like that, you always feel like you have to walk on eggshells around and it's exhausting.

(aside: Quark absolutely is weaker than her. She's second in command of the station, he has no authority. Physically, she could very easily overpower him.)

Yeah, Dukat was a monster in general and the symbol and chief architect of the occupation in particular. If Kira wasn't angry at him, she ought to be up for sainthood.

Quark, not only is he a small-time crook but the way he makes his living is getting people to drink too much and gamble. Not great traits as seen by a spiritual person.

The provisional government WAS a bunch of squabbling opportunists who hated each other almost as much as the Cardassians. Kira didn't exactly hate them, but was very frusterated with them and some anger is certainly justified.

The Federation. She's barely experienced the Federation before the series opened. How is she going to know that the Federation is almost always the good guys, who don't interfere with weaker civilizations?

Sisko. It's a Bajoran station, so why the heck isn't a Bajoran (like me for example!) in command? Why isn't HE first officer?

The station computers ARE evil especially at first before Miles went all David Bowman on them.

Then add that she spent from age 13 or so until however old she was in season 1 (late 20s?) fighting, hiding in the woods, killing Cardassians and collaborating Bajorans. That's a heck of a way to grow up, and in real life she'd probably be way more screwed up than they showed.

Kira calmed down pretty quickly after the first 3-4 episodes of season 1.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

If Ro were to come back, why not as another antagonist? Putting her back in uniform after betraying SF and joining a terrorist organization bent on destorying relations between the Federation and Cardassian Union is beyond far fetched. She could easily be the face of the Maquis, thus making Eddington redundant.

I wouldn't put her back in Starfleet uniform, but I think you could do a very good job with a story that ends up with her in the Militia. You could explore what it would take for her to turn her back on the Maquis (probably Eddington and his bs) strongly enough that they wouldn't take her back even if she wanted. You could explore the complexity of morality in all those things (maybe have her save people in such a way that the Federation is willing to let her walk away instead of pushing to prosecute). You could explore Kira's view of Ro and how Ro reminds her of her time in the Resistance which could lead to Kira recommending Ro to the militia. And in the end, you could get that little bit more conflict between Bajor and the Federation when Ro is assigned to DS9 whereas Sisko/the Federation had expected that Ro would go off into the sunset and not bother them anymore, but they can't object without potentially damaging the diplomatic relationship.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Kira calmed down pretty quickly after the first 3-4 episodes of season 1.

It's also worth mentioning all the restrained disagreement she would have: SF not sending a fleet to defend the station while laying the minefield or Vedek Yassim's protest. And let's face it, Russot attacked Kira.

BTW, why would someone use the term "tantrum" to describe Kira's behavior?

 

[Orphalesion]

I think particularly Kira's reaction to Bashir being a giant ass hat over her home being "the wild frontier!" and acting like he was a saint bringing the Bajorans healing and civilization was completely justified. Frankly I thought she was showing remarkable restraint.
As to her being aggressive towards Sisko in the pilot. I can understand that too; she felt threatened by this representative of a powerful space empire encroaching on her turf. Even if it wasn't justified with Sisko, considering Kira's background it's understandable that she acted this way at first. And I would never call that a "tantrum".

And as has already been said, after the initial couple episodes Kira mellows out pretty quickly and eventually learns to respect and trust the other main characters. She grows considerably over the series and part of her arc is learning to adapt to (relative) peace time and allowing herself to experience positive emotions. By the end of the series she's so in control of herself that she offers genuine advice to Kai Wynn a woman she despises and who contributed to the tragic death of one of her lovers (not her fault Wynn ignored her advice completely).
Kira spent her whole life fighting a war, from childhood on, it's understandable if she's not a cuddle bug.

 

[BillJ]

I would have rather had Forbes than Visitor.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, Dukat was a monster in general and the symbol and chief architect of the occupation in particular. If Kira wasn't angry at him, she ought to be up for sainthood.

I think someone also misread the situation in "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night" since no one seemed to have carried on from: "Oh yes, you raped my mother." Because I don't think, "Sex for food so my family won't die" qualifies as meaningful consent.

Perhaps best that episode is ignored.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think someone also misread the situation in "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night" since no one seemed to have carried on from: "Oh yes, you raped my mother." Because I don't think, "Sex for food so my family won't die" qualifies as meaningful consent.

Perhaps best that episode is ignored.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you have written, but I find that the confusing emotions concerning forced sex among victims of slavery and genocide are often far from black and white. It's much easier to condemn the institutions that created the injustice whereas what people did to surivive through it, either in response to literal threats of violence or in desperation to survive, is harder to judge for their children.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you have written, but I find that the confusing emotions concerning forced sex among victims of slavery and genocide are often far from black and white. It's much easier to condemn the institutions that created the injustice whereas what people did to surivive through it, either in response to literal threats of violence or in desperation to survive, is harder to judge for their children.

In simple terms, I think they conflated five or six different treatments of women by occupiers. Specifically, on Bajor, there's no way it was anything other than her being a hostage that Dukat was gaslighting. I do think that society has moved on at least a bit better in how people under the control of others can try to appear benveolent while wielding horrible authority.

Meru was a prisoner, nothing more or less.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In simple terms, I think they conflated five or six different treatments of women by occupiers. Specifically, on Bajor, there's no way it was anything other than her being a hostage that Dukat was gaslighting. I do think that society has moved on at least a bit better in how people under the control of others can try to appear benveolent while wielding horrible authority.

Meru was a prisoner, nothing more or less.

I am not disagree that they were both coereced and captives. However, there are cases of Jewish women in concentration camps who found themselves the objects of generosity of NS camp personnel, subsequently testify in their favor, or French women under occupation who were forced to be servants and lovers, yet were tarnished, even prosecuted, as collaborators. How events are remembered is simply too messy. I think the episode reflects this.

 

[Crewman6]

I suppose I'm in the minorty, but I would've vastly preferred Ro to Kira.
As I mentionned before: although they're both bitter and angry characters due to a similar, traumatic background, they manifest those feelings differently:

- Ro is angry because she doesn't feel like she can fit in anywhere, she mostly wants to be left alone. She's a melancholic character.
- Kira is angry because everything doesn't go her way. She wants people to treat her every word as a command and if they don't, she flies into a rage. She's a bully.
Some of her targets deserved it, but when you get mad at everyone else (except Sisko after she learned he was space jeebus), the problem is you.

Kira had some very nice episodes (I love Duet), but her scenes in non-Kira centric episodes tended to ruin the mood. Odo and Quark playfully arguing? Here comes Kira to threaten Quark. No nuance, no "we're adversaries, but we enjoy the game and grudgingly respect each other", just a direct, blunt threat dripping with open scorn. That's no fun.

I would have preferred Ro, too, but I think you're wildly overstating your "issues" with Kira.

 

[Crewman6]

The Maquis war represented by Eddington, so we didn't need Ro. But she's an interesting character. If not as regular, I'd like to have seen her as recurring guest.

If Ro was in the DS9 cast, they never would have done the TNG Maquis storyline, since she would have been on DS9.

Kira needed to be the first officer, though. I never understood the idea that Ro was intended to be first officer of the station that was supposed to have an *integrated* Starfleet/Bajoran crew. Her earring doesn't change the fact that she's a Starfleet officer who hasn't seen Bajor since before she hit puberty. That position had to go to someone who was already there long before the Federation showed up, or there would be no workable balance of power on the station.

It's very possible they would have downplayed the role of the Bajoran militia on the station if Ro was first officer. Or they could have made her resign Starfleet and join the BM herself.

 

[Crewman6]

I think Visitor did a marvelous job and Kira became one of my favorite Trek characters ever.

But I gotta admit, as a massive fan of Ro and Forbes, I was disappointed that she didn't join the show and a part of me definitely wishes it had gone that way.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

It's very possible they would have downplayed the role of the Bajoran militia on the station if Ro was first officer. Or they could have made her resign Starfleet and join the BM herself.

I wonder if they'd have the Militia at all, and have it that Starfleet alone operates the station as, without a ranking member in the command staff, why would they feel like they needed to follow yet more uniformed interlopers? It would be interesting if Ro had been the XO (still in Starfleet) if they'd included another Militia officer in the line-up somewhere--maybe a communications officer--along with Chief O'Brien, Doctor Amaros, and the hoverchair-bound science officer, and the shape-shifting "sheriff".

 

[Qonundrum]

Ro Laren was originally planned to be the 1st officer on DS9. However, I think it's better that she declined to be in the series. There would have been 1st officer on the station that had disobeyed orders and people had lost their lives because of that.

Putting an officer with that kind of history as the second in command of the station would have been silly. She got her "job" back too easily in TNG? They needed her help on one mission and suddenly she is flying around on the flagship. Besides, I think Nerys was far better character. We didn't get to know Ro as well as Nerys but still.

Forbes rocked the house as Rp, but Kira's personality just fits the ensemble and tone of DS9 better than Ro's. Forbes went off to do another show, but contriving to get Ro to meet Kira - despite being the best way to shovel in crossover characters - might not have worked any better than their other attempts to do so. Unless they would have, season 1 was more Bajoran-centric and before the Dominion conflict brewing... season 2 introduced the Maquis so there was an opportunity, had Forbes wanted to return and if there was a chance to do so...?

 

[dupersuper]

I would have preferred Ro, too, but I think you're wildly overstating your "issues" with Kira.

Yeah...I'm not sure who the Kira they're describing is.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think someone also misread the situation in "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night" since no one seemed to have carried on from: "Oh yes, you raped my mother." Because I don't think, "Sex for food so my family won't die" qualifies as meaningful consent.

Perhaps best that episode is ignored.

Kira's mom consented the way Jefferson's slaves consented.

But you don't need that episode to see Dukat for what he really is, a sociopath who is adaptable enough to play the part of the caring invader forced to be cruel when it suits him. If public opinion calls for a reluctant caring slaver, he can be that. He can adapt to whatever archetype is popular at the moment, but all he cared about is proving how great he is and how much he deserves to dominate the inferiors.

Dukat is basically a competent version of Trump.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Dukat is basically a competent version of Trump.

It's not an entirely bad comparison and I'm not even sure Dukat is actually that competent. Dukat is an amazing grifter but his entire career is based around being superficially charming and latching himself onto people more powerful than himself while trying to gaslight people weaker than himself into being grateful for his "benevolence."

Dukat really was frustrated he couldn't turn around the Bajor system because he believed he could make them worship him. It was all a major ego trip for him and he's frustrated because he can't undo generations of abuse or even shut it down enough to get them to buy his spiel.

No wonder he ended up as a cult leader. Downgrade as it may be, it's exactly the thing he wanted to be.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I'll defend Dukat's competence relative to Trump.

Dukat understood what he was doing. He knew about crushing spirits. He knew what it took to be worshipped. He was a smart version of evil.

 

[Crewman6]

I wonder if they'd have the Militia at all, and have it that Starfleet alone operates the station as, without a ranking member in the command staff, why would they feel like they needed to follow yet more uniformed interlopers? It would be interesting if Ro had been the XO (still in Starfleet) if they'd included another Militia officer in the line-up somewhere--maybe a communications officer--along with Chief O'Brien, Doctor Amaros, and the hoverchair-bound science officer, and the shape-shifting "sheriff".

Yeah, there's a version of the show where there was no BM at all, but Odo would have needed some kind of authority beyond Starfleet and it would have eliminated most of the Bajoran/UFP conflict if they weren't around in any meaningful way beyond just one Starfleet officer who was Bajoran.

Who knows?

 

[mlbach]

BTW, why would someone use the term "tantrum" to describe Kira's behavior?

Because she’s a woman.