Better that Michelle Forbes wasn't in DS9?

[Guy Gardener]

Well...

The Defiant had a crew just short of 60, but before that, how many federation Officers and enlisted were there on the station? Less than 20?

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

That being said Voyager had three female characters (still not a lot) and never really explored friendships between them either all that much.

Well, Voyager didn't explore *anything* very much. But at least the relationship/mentorship Janeway/ Seven was more explored than any f/f friendship on other Trek shows up till then... hell, even Janeway and Torres. Mostly, probably, Janeway and Kes. I certainly bought their friendship more than Deanna/ Beverly.

 

[HugeLobes]

Behr recently mentioned that they dropped the ball by not exploring a deeper friendship between Kira and Jadzia, and I agree. But with 3 female characters to choose from, maybe one of the other combinations would have worked better anyway. Just because Kira and Dax were the only women on the main cast, doesn't mean they are automatically soul sisters.

It's also worth remembering that sometimes you can't just write friendships. As far as I remember the friendship between Miles and Bashir wasn't going to be there originally. It just happened organically. They did try with Kira and Jadzia by giving them a few scenes, but there really wasn't anything much between them apart from the fact that they were both women. If it was right, it would have happened, but it wasn't. The friendship only really got as strong as it did because Jadzia became such a people person after they fixed her character. She was pretty much friends with everyone.

I know others disagree, but I'm annoyed they turned what felt like a very genuine friendship between Odo and Kira into a fairly contrived romantic relationship. I could see him being into her, but I never got anything from Kira.

While I agree that the romance would not have been possible at this place and time, I would have loved Ro instead of Worf joining the cast, balancing the m/f ratio a bit, but most of all because of the interesting dynamics.

I'm kind of torn because while I didn't like Worf at all on TNG I loved the way he fit into the DS9 cast. There wasn't really anyone similar to him on the show, so it made sense to bring him on. If you're going to introduce another woman, I think Ro would be a poor choice just for reasons previously mentioned.

 

[Xhiandra]

I suppose I'm in the minorty, but I would've vastly preferred Ro to Kira.
As I mentionned before: although they're both bitter and angry characters due to a similar, traumatic background, they manifest those feelings differently:

- Ro is angry because she doesn't feel like she can fit in anywhere, she mostly wants to be left alone. She's a melancholic character.
- Kira is angry because everything doesn't go her way. She wants people to treat her every word as a command and if they don't, she flies into a rage. She's a bully.
Some of her targets deserved it, but when you get mad at everyone else (except Sisko after she learned he was space jeebus), the problem is you.

Kira had some very nice episodes (I love Duet), but her scenes in non-Kira centric episodes tended to ruin the mood. Odo and Quark playfully arguing? Here comes Kira to threaten Quark. No nuance, no "we're adversaries, but we enjoy the game and grudgingly respect each other", just a direct, blunt threat dripping with open scorn. That's no fun.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

- Ro is angry because she doesn't feel like she can fit in anywhere, she mostly wants to be left alone. She's a melancholic character.
- Kira is angry because everything doesn't go her way. She wants people to treat her every word as a command and if they don't, she flies into a rage. She's a bully.

(Sorry, wonky formatting) I respect your opinion, but that's not what I got at all from her character. Yes, she was headstrong and had a lot of underlying anger. I never felt she was bullying someone (which means misuse of power over weaker persons).

Some of her targets deserved it, but when you get mad at everyone else (except Sisko after she learned he was space jeebus), the problem is you.

Partly, yes. The actress played it as having PTSD.

That said, I thought a lot of her anger was pretty justified.
Quark (who certainly wasn't weaker than her) did a lot of shady things, some of which he should hav gone to jail for. So she didn't like that, or him. *shrugs*

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Behr recently mentioned that they dropped the ball by not exploring a deeper friendship between Kira and Jadzia, and I agree. But with 3 female characters to choose from, maybe one of the other combinations would have worked better anyway. Just because Kira and Dax were the only women on the main cast, doesn't mean they are automatically soul sisters.

I think you have overinterpreted what Behr has said. Yes, he said that the writers dropped the ball by not doing more with the friendship, but that does not mean that he said that the friendship was flawed in terms of the drama. In fact, there were plenty of great Dax-Kira moments, not to mention lots of ways in which the two tended to play off one another in the midst of male crewmates. The fact that they did not do enough, which is what Behr said, would not be remedied by introducing a third character.

It's also worth remembering that sometimes you can't just write friendships. As far as I remember the friendship between Miles and Bashir wasn't going to be there originally. It just happened organically. They did try with Kira and Jadzia by giving them a few scenes, but there really wasn't anything much between them apart from the fact that they were both women. If it was right, it would have happened, but it wasn't. The friendship only really got as strong as it did because Jadzia became such a people person after they fixed her character. She was pretty much friends with everyone.

The Bashir-O'Brien friendship was always in the cards. After Behr read the series bible, he told Michael Piller that he would come back to run the writers room on two conditions: (1) that baseball was coming back and (2) he could make the two most different characters, Dr. Amoros and Chief O'Brien, friends. It was organic in the sense that it evolved slowly, but it was always part of the design.

(There might have been a third condition about a Rick Berman dartboard, but I cant verify that.)

 

[HugeLobes]

The Bashir-O'Brien friendship was always in the cards. After Behr read the series bible, he told Michael Piller that he would come back to run the writers room on two conditions: (1) that baseball was coming back and (2) he could make the two most different characters, Dr. Amoros and Chief O'Brien, friends. It was organic in the sense that it evolved slowly, but it was always part of the design.

Ah fair enough, I thought I remembered hearing one of the actors talking about how it wasn't really planned. Still though, seems likely if there was no natural chemistry it wouldn't have happened. Kira and Dax did have plenty of nice moments, but it just never seemed to make sense like it did with Miles and Bashir during their drinking session. It felt more like a nice workplace friendship than anything else.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I think Ro would've been a great addition to the cast if DS9 had been given a starfighter defense, she has the piloting and tactical know-how to make a solid squadron leader. That way we'd still retain Kira and her different perspective, but also have the clash of beliefs and approaches with her and Ro.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ah fair enough, I thought I remembered hearing one of the actors talking about how it wasn't really planned. Still though, seems likely if there was no natural chemistry it wouldn't have happened. Kira and Dax did have plenty of nice moments, but it just never seemed to make sense like it did with Miles and Bashir during their drinking session. It felt more like a nice workplace friendship than anything else.

I agree that Dax-Kira was not as interesting as Bashir-O'Brien, but in the broader context of Star Trek, it is easily the best friendship between women--better than Janeway-Seven of Nine (more mother-daughter, or T'Pol-Hoshi, or Crusher-Troi, or Uhura-nobody. There have been some great camaraderie between women in Discovery, but the frequency of those moments still isn't there yet.

 

[Lynx]

First of all, I would like to state that Ro Laren is one of my TNG favorite characters.

But i think we should be happy that we got Kira instead who is one of the best Star Trek characters ever.

But I really would have liked to see Ro Laren as a recurring character on DS9.

 

[HugeLobes]

I agree that Dax-Kira was not as interesting as Bashir-O'Brien, but in the broader context of Star Trek, it is easily the best friendship between women--better than Janeway-Seven of Nine (more mother-daughter, or T'Pol-Hoshi, or Crusher-Troi, or Uhura-nobody. There have been some great camaraderie between women in Discovery, but the frequency of those moments still isn't there yet.

True enough, but goddam is that the lowest of bars! Didnt get too far through Discovery, but nice to know it's making those changes.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

But I really would have liked to see Ro Laren as a recurring character on DS9.

Especially in her Maquis role, maybe someone who was just angry and wanted to fight rather than Eddington seeing himself as some kind of saviour. Her DS9 relaunch backstory, leading a ragtag band of Maquis survivors behind enemy lines, could also open up some interesting new plots.

 

[Xhiandra]

(Sorry, wonky formatting) I respect your opinion, but that's not what I got at all from her character. Yes, she was headstrong and had a lot of underlying anger. I never felt she was bullying someone (which means misuse of power over weaker persons).

Partly, yes. The actress played it as having PTSD.

That said, I thought a lot of her anger was pretty justified.
Quark (who certainly wasn't weaker than her) did a lot of shady things, some of which he should hav gone to jail for. So she didn't like that, or him. *shrugs*

She has her reasons, obviously, but she's angry at:

- Dukat. Ok, Dukat is a terrible person (quite frankly, he's a monster) and completely deserves it.
- Quark. Ok, he's a crook.
- The provisional government. Ok, the provisional government is incompetent and corrupt to some extent... or, at least, she perceives it that way. Whilst being part of the administration (as liaison officer to DS9).
- The Federation. Ok, she perceives the Federation as new invaders.
- Sisko, before learning he's space jeebus. Ok, he represents the Federation.
- The station computers.
- I forget who else. Long time I haven't seen DS9 (at least in its entirety). It just seems that in every scene she's angry and yelling. I found it grating.

Sure, she has her reasons (some very valid, some less so), but she always throws a tantrum whenever something doesn't go her way. IRL, people like that, you always feel like you have to walk on eggshells around and it's exhausting.

(aside: Quark absolutely is weaker than her. She's second in command of the station, he has no authority. Physically, she could very easily overpower him.)

 

[Valin]

I see Garak's sexuality as flexible, to be determined by the mission. The mission calls for seducing a man, he'll be gay. The mission calls for seducing a woman, he'll be straight. Personal preference depends more on the partner than their sex. His relationship with Ziyal was partly real, as a charming young person who (for lack of other potential partners) found him interesting, and partly based on taking pleasure in annoying Dukat.

Interesting! Much like how KGB (and it's post USSR equivalent) trained some of their agents and "illegals" to be flexible sexually depending on the mission.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Plain, simple Garak, never know if he'll kiss your neck or snap it

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Sure, she has her reasons (some very valid, some less so), but she always throws a tantrum whenever something doesn't go her way. IRL, people like that, you always feel like you have to walk on eggshells around and it's exhausting.

Every time? I await your list.

 

[valkyrie013]

An organic way for Ro to come onboard ( here or Voyager I guess) would be she shows up when Eddington goes full maquis and she's there, but that she's angry or not fully on board for the bad crap the Maquis was up to , and at the end of a number of episodes, she saves sisko, and based on recommendations of Him and Picard, she's reinstated as an ensign, or the bajoran military, and you have an extra person on the show, and a good foil for Kira to go against.. maybe a hate/hate relationship growing to grudging respect to actual friendship.

Rather have her on Ds9 than voyager, cuz atleast on here she would have had a character arc and some good scripts, Voyager would have been a Complete Waste..

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If Ro were to come back, why not as another antagonist? Putting her back in uniform after betraying SF and joining a terrorist organization bent on destorying relations between the Federation and Cardassian Union is beyond far fetched. She could easily be the face of the Maquis, thus making Eddington redundant.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

If they'd brought her back I think she should've been a "soldier of fortune" sort, not in Starfleet or the Militia, a free agent (with her own little ship) so that she is an unknown quantity for the crew--she can do good for her people or for Starfleet at times, but then she'll turn around and help some of the remaining Maquis cells steal supplies.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

She has her reasons, obviously, but she's angry at:

- Dukat. Ok, Dukat is a terrible person (quite frankly, he's a monster) and completely deserves it.
- Quark. Ok, he's a crook.
- The provisional government. Ok, the provisional government is incompetent and corrupt to some extent... or, at least, she perceives it that way. Whilst being part of the administration (as liaison officer to DS9).
- The Federation. Ok, she perceives the Federation as new invaders.
- Sisko, before learning he's space jeebus. Ok, he represents the Federation.
- The station computers.

Yeah, let's agree to disagree - I think all of these are perfectly legit!

And computers are evil, I totally get angry at mine when it doesn't behave.

Just to be clear, I loved Ro, as I've stated before, so I'd have been happy to see her again in addition to Kira (or on Voyager).