Better Call Saul, the TV series

[Crow T. Robot]

Well how about that. I'd say that pretty much confirms Fring left the note. It's an acrostic, I believe.

I'm still not ready to write Chuck off as all bad, but he's pretty bad here. He seems to take it really hard that people just don't like him the way they do Jimmy, apparently including their mother. And the fact that Jimmy can use that natural advantage in unethical ways is just too much for Chuck.

Almost everything shown about Jimmy makes it look like he's a good-hearted guy. But I'm not yet sure that Jimmy's ability to con people doesn't extent to the audience.

He's definitely sleazy, but he's never really been portrayed as a bad guy. Either in this show or Breaking Bad. He does bad (mostly unethical) things and he's not above hiring or at least facilitating the hiring of assassins (especially if they only focus on bad people; in fact, has he ever condoned harming innocents?), but I can't recall a single example of him being a genuinely vile person. Certainly not to the level Chuck is. I mean, not only did he not tell Jimmy about his mother's last words, but he didn't even have the nurse use the intercom to call him back even though he was still in the hospital.

I mean, the way he reacted to Chuck collapsing at the copy shop really says it all. He didn't care about himself, his career, or anything other than saving his brother. That wasn't him conning anyone, even the audience.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

Hrm, I can't find a way to edit that and fix it. Sorry.

 

[DarthPipes]

I'm a big fan of Better Call Saul but this finale SUCKED. It was the worst episode to date. McKean is doing a great job as Chuck but his character is exhausting and their recent conflict has been repetitive as hell. I saw the tape recorder coming a mile away. I appreciate the slow burn of this show but it was too slow with both Jimmy and Mike's storylines.

This episode to me, to use an argument from South Park, was the writers loving the smell of their own farts.

 

[EnsignRicky]

I gotta say, after that hellish visit to the hospital that Jimmy's little stunt cost him, Chuck may at least be a little vindicated in his retribution.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

Uhm, no.

That was entirely Chuck's fault. His obsession with hurting his brother is what lead him to go there. There was no need for him to go there at all, as he could have gotten the clerk to sign an affidavit or something similar instead.

There is no vindicating his character. Chuck is the lowest of the low.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't see how you can argue Jimmy is in the right here. He had more sympathetic motivations, but your intent is not what determines if you are right or wrong. Jimmy sabotaged Mesa Verde is a way that will cost them money and jobs just to help out his girlfriend. The fact he has 'A good heart' doesn't justify it in the least.

Chuck has unresolved jealousy issues and his heart is not 'In the right place.' He has not done anything that is not legally and professionally justified. Jimmy committed forgery to humiliate him and harm his career, of course he was justified in trying to prove it.

Let's not forget that in BB Saul is always the first to suggest a prison shanking.

Jimmy is the nicer guy, Chuck is the more moral human being. Jimmy is someone who does whatever he wants whenever he wants regardless of consequences to other people. You can't rationalize it as being okay because of something he feels he or Kim is personally owed.

Jimmy is responsible for his own actions, not Chuck. Chuck is an asshole. Jimmy is a scumbag criminal.

 

[J.T.B.]

He's definitely sleazy, but he's never really been portrayed as a bad guy. Either in this show or Breaking Bad. He does bad (mostly unethical) things and he's not above hiring or at least facilitating the hiring of assassins (especially if they only focus on bad people; in fact, has he ever condoned harming innocents?), but I can't recall a single example of him being a genuinely vile person.

One of the first times we see Saul Goodman, he recommends eliminating a problem by killing someone (Badger). An "innocent" or not, that's murdering a human being. That's more than just sleazy. In fact, most people would consider that pretty vile. Remember how sympathetic Walter White was in the beginning.

I saw the tape recorder coming a mile away.

I agree there, when Chuck said he had made a mistake and felt bad for blaming Jimmy you knew he was lying.

Uhm, no.

That was entirely Chuck's fault. His obsession with hurting his brother is what lead him to go there. There was no need for him to go there at all, as he could have gotten the clerk to sign an affidavit or something similar instead.

There is no vindicating his character. Chuck is the lowest of the low.

I don't see it as that simple. Kim made a bid to take a client with her when she departed the firm. It was a gamble. Chuck made a bid to keep the client, and made a very strong case, and won. That is exactly what everyone should have expected would happen in that situation. That's the business they have chosen to compete in. (Kim handling that client all by herself was wildly unrealistic, but we'll let that slide.)

So, to help his girlfriend, Jimmy steals and forges legal documents to sabotage his brother's work, and in the process, his professional reputation. Then he bribed a witness to cover up the crime. If you heard the story and didn't know the names and personalities involved, whom would would you say was in the wrong?

That's what's great about these shows, the ambiguities.

 

[DarthPipes]

Exactly, J.T.B. Once Chuck said he had made the mistake, I new instantly that he was lying and that he had a tape recorder.

 

[Ometiklan]

I agree with various above comments:
- Jimmy's justification that he did it for Kim because she deserved it is weak (for Jimmy), but realistic and good for the show
- Yeah, Jimmy does illegal stuff for good ends (i.e., helping others) resulting in blowback/consequences (Chaotic Good - I like these RPG terms even though I don't play)
- Chuck does only legal stuff but for a bad end (i.e., harming Jimmy; the action of a Lawful Evil). Furthermore he goes out of his way to do so even when it will hurt himself (talking with Mesa Verde during the day and in an EM environment; going to the copier store) just to punish/stop Jimmy. As Kim understood, if he had any faith or support for Jimmy none of this would have happened - though Jimmy just can't help himself and is ultimately responsible for his own actions.

I wonder how the tape recording will play out and I am interested to find out if said tape recording is legal in N.M.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

Given Jimmy's charisma and the fact that even Chuck said on the tape that he was just saying all that to make him feel better, I sincerely doubt it'll matter unless Chuck can convince not only the clerk but his (presumably former) assistant to go back on what they said to him, too.

 

[publiusr]

Chuck went too far with the tape recorder. Nothing to keep Jimmy from having him committed now.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

I'm just wondering why Jimmy decides to change his name, yet still operate in the same area where everyone would recognize his face on his advertisements. Clearly he doesn't get disbarred, as that would be caught immediately, and it's also fairly clear it has nothing to do with going into hiding. So I'm guessing it's going to have to come down to something between him and Chuck, as that's the only thing that makes sense to me right now.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Chuck may have found a legal way or blackmail Jimmy into NOT being able to use the family name. Or maybe at the end of the show Jimmy no longer wishes to use the family name due to Chuck being Chuck. Or Jimmy just decided and accepted who he really is and adopted/legally changed his name.

I'm really enjoying both sides of Chuck and Jimmy, both characters are flawed and both feel they are in the right. Just crazy sibling rivalry to the max. Will they completely destroy each other or will they finally just accept each other as equals? Even Jimmy was like, 'come and get me Chuck, don't just give up and retire.'

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Jimmy is a great character but objectively a pretty awful person. Having good intentions doesn't mean anything if you have no regard for consequences. I would put Jimmy more in the 'True neutral' category. Pure selfishness. Even his love for Kim is self serving.

I'm surprised just how excessively negatively Chuck is viewed. I'd place him in the Lawful Neutral category. I agree he's a jerk. But if Jimmy endangers his firm's case by soliciting, he is correct to point it out to protect his firm from the legal fallout. If Jimmy commits forgery to smear his career, he's justified in any legal means to fight back. The fact that he has impure motives doesn't make his legal actions more evil than Jimmy's illegal ones. Jimmy and Chuck both have equally awful motives, but Chuck's actions have a more positive impact on others. They should see each other as equal as human beings but they are just not equal as lawyers.

Maybe it's that Jimmy's attitude fits more in the protagonist template so we're willing to root for him the same way we root for Tony Soprano against the FBI. If James and Charlie McGill were people in real life, Jimmy is the guy I'd prefer to hang out with, Chuck is the better human being.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

And please realize that in a TV world where Tucco Salamancha and murderous Neo-Nazi drug lords exist, you're calling a law abiding person the 'lowest of the low' because he has emotional baggage.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

1.) By that logic, Hitler wasn't a bad guy because Stalin and Mao existed.

2.) Somehow I don't think trying to ruin an innocent person's (Kim's) life counts as just "emotional baggage." Or everyone else he's threatened or hurt. At best he's Lawful Evil if you want to use D&D terminology (nevermind that even most D&D players find the alignment system stupid in a black-and-white fantasy world, let alone a shades-of-gray modern world).

 

[Harvey]

I don't think the recording will be used as legal evidence by Chuck -- would it even be admissible?

I think he's going to use it to drive a wedge between Jimmy and Kim.

I wonder what happened to Chuck's wife? Does Chuck's animosity towards his brother also stem from something that happened with her?

I'm also curious about Jimmy's childhood. Did he really steal all the money Chuck claims he did? Or was his father really the neighborhood's easy mark Jimmy says he is in the flashback? I tend I think both things are true -- Jimmy really did steal, which he won't admit to because he's found a way to justify it to himself, but their father really did give out a lot of cash to both con men and people in need, to the detriment of his business, which is something Chuck can't accept because he idolized his father.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

I wonder what happened to Chuck's wife? Does Chuck's animosity towards his brother also stem from something that happened with her?

Chuck already had his animosity towards Jimmy while she was still around and before he got sick. We saw that in a flashback when he came over for dinner. He couldn't even stand the fact that his wife enjoyed him being there, particularly because he thought she enjoyed Jimmy more than himself (as evident when he tried to make a joke later on). In fact, that's a bit of an epiphany for me; Chuck can't tolerate the notion that anyone could possibly like his brother more than him. His wife, his mother, Kim, his assistant, etc. That may really be what the problem is for him, and why his actions are even more assholish. He's just a jealous asshat.

I'm also curious about Jimmy's childhood. Did he really steal all the money Chuck claims he did? Or was his father really the neighborhood's easy mark Jimmy says he is in the flashback? I tend I think both things are true -- Jimmy really did steal, which he won't admit to because he's found a way to justify it to himself, but their father really did give out a lot of cash to both con men and people in need, to the detriment of his business, which is something Chuck can't accept because he idolized his father.

I have little doubt that's true, though I doubt it was as bad as Chuck makes it out to be. His father was pretty much a sap and easy mark all around (it's not like Jimmy was telling that story to anyone in particular; it was just a flashback as far as I could tell), so even if Jimmy wasn't there he'd probably still have gone bankrupt for one reason or another.

But with Chuck hating Jimmy pretty much no matter what he does, he's an easy source to put the blame on.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Watching Mike's last episodes in Breaking Bad is so much sadder after you've seen Better Call Saul.

 

[Mr Light]

I only recently finished Season 2. I want to like this show, I loved Breaking Bad, but dear god things are dragging so slowly. Jimmy's failing law practice is so much less interesting than a dying man selling drugs and running afoul of gangsters.