Ben Cross or Mark Leanord?

[Omega_Glory]

Mark Lenard is by far the better choice. He might even be the best Vulcan ever cast for Trek, except for Nimoy as Spock that is.

 

[cooleddie74]

Ben Cross has a lot of gravitas. His vocal delivery in his acting roles and his facial structure/expressions lend themselves to an authority figure like a Vulcan ambassador or other luminary.

 

[Daneel]

I thought that Ben Cross's Sarek just came across as being too nice of a guy. Sarek, let's not forget, is the guy who refused to talk to his son for 18 years because he joined Starfleet Academy. Sarek should always have a hard edge to him -- he should seem like he's a bit of a stubborn jerk. Cross's Sarek just seemed like a really nice, reasonable guy. That's not Sarek of Vulcan.

I can see where you're coming from, and to an extent, I agree. However, in the film we don't really see any interaction between Spock and Sarek in the time between Spock declining admittance into the Vulcan Science Academy and the destruction of Vulcan. I always got the sense that it was largely Spock's decision to enter Starfleet that caused the rift with Sarek, but after Vulcan is gone and Amanda is dead, I think it would be clear to both of them that the reasons for their estrangement seem quite petty in the face of such loss -- thus a reconciliation goes without saying.

Perhaps it is a failing of the film. It might have been nice to see more tension between Spock and Sarek; indeed, it probably would have made their later interactions all the more powerful. I think we saw a hint of disappointment in Sarek's face when Spock declined to enter the Vulcan Science Academy, but that wasn't really expanded upon. Too bad. I wonder if there were any additional Spock/Sarek scenes that were filmed but ended up getting cut.

Regardless, with the scenes we are given in the movie, I still think Cross was fine. I don't believe Sarek was behaving out of character -- rather, in the wake of such tragedy, we saw a side of Sarek that he had never really shown before, and Cross conveyed that quite well, IMO.

But yeah, I still agree that Lenard was better in the role.

 

[Cakes488]

I haven't seen any posts made about Spock's father yet, although he did have a minor role in the film. He also did in the previous Kirk era movies, but how did you think Ben Cross's portrayal of Sarek played out to be? I think he did very well, he was a good Sarek for the movie but like Spock, Leanord had the voice and stemina to play the character.

Yes he did very well indeed....but he's no Mark Lenard.

I know we all won't agree on this but IMO opinion every original is better and always will be....not taking anything away from the new crew...but come on now...do these questions even need to be asked?

 

[Jeri]

I think it's ok to ask them here at the BBS; we come here to talk about it, because in RL nobody would.

 

[Sci]

I thought that Ben Cross's Sarek just came across as being too nice of a guy. Sarek, let's not forget, is the guy who refused to talk to his son for 18 years because he joined Starfleet Academy. Sarek should always have a hard edge to him -- he should seem like he's a bit of a stubborn jerk. Cross's Sarek just seemed like a really nice, reasonable guy. That's not Sarek of Vulcan.

I can see where you're coming from, and to an extent, I agree. However, in the film we don't really see any interaction between Spock and Sarek in the time between Spock declining admittance into the Vulcan Science Academy and the destruction of Vulcan. I always got the sense that it was largely Spock's decision to enter Starfleet that caused the rift with Sarek, but after Vulcan is gone and Amanda is dead, I think it would be clear to both of them that the reasons for their estrangement seem quite petty in the face of such loss -- thus a reconciliation goes without saying.

Perhaps it is a failing of the film. It might have been nice to see more tension between Spock and Sarek; indeed, it probably would have made their later interactions all the more powerful. I think we saw a hint of disappointment in Sarek's face when Spock declined to enter the Vulcan Science Academy, but that wasn't really expanded upon. Too bad. I wonder if there were any additional Spock/Sarek scenes that were filmed but ended up getting cut.

Regardless, with the scenes we are given in the movie, I still think Cross was fine. I don't believe Sarek was behaving out of character -- rather, in the wake of such tragedy, we saw a side of Sarek that he had never really shown before, and Cross conveyed that quite well, IMO.

But yeah, I still agree that Lenard was better in the role.

I can see where you're coming from, but I still disagree.

I think one of the defining sequences of the Sarek character comes from Star Trek V. Granted, I'm reluctant to use ANYTHING from that film, but it bears noting that, apparently, when Spock was born, Sarek looked at him, bitterly disappointed, and pronounced: "So Human."

That's an important aspect of his character, I think -- Sarek was always disapproving of Spock, because even though Spock would (as per ENT) necessarily have been a planned birth, Sarek was always disappointed that Spock wasn't a pure Vulcan. It's deeply irrational, of course, but I think it's a defining aspect of Sarek.

Which, to me, makes for an interesting twist -- this guy who is this amazing diplomat, able to make people who hate each other come together to reasonable compromises and agreements, was so irrationally uncompromising in his personal life. Basically, episodes like "Journey to Babel" always seemed to imply to me that Spock embraced Vulcan stoicism because he was desperately trying to earn the love and approval of a cold and disapproving father. And yet, when Spock does do something that's not conventionally Vulcan, his father refuses to speak to him. And this pattern recurs throughout their lives -- when they have a public disagreement about how the UFP ought to handle the Cardassians, Sarek breaks off their relationship again.

Basically, Sarek's a jerk.

Ben Cross's Sarek just... he just wasn't a jerk. He was a nice guy. You could totally believe that he was a good and encouraging father throughout Spock's life and that Spock has no real daddy issues in this new film. That's my basic problem with Cross's performance.

 

[Claudia]

I think one of the defining sequences of the Sarek character comes from Star Trek V. Granted, I'm reluctant to use ANYTHING from that film, but it bears noting that, apparently, when Spock was born, Sarek looked at him, bitterly disappointed, and pronounced: "So Human."

I agree that this crucial scene (at least for us ST fans *g*) is missing from the movie. Did this universe's Sarek react the same way to Spock's birth?

Basically, Sarek's a jerk.

But then again, there's something like ST III where Sarek for once follows his heart and desperately tries to save what's left of Spock.

Ben Cross's Sarek just... he just wasn't a jerk. He was a nice guy. You could totally believe that he was a good and encouraging father throughout Spock's life and that Spock has no real daddy issues in this new film. That's my basic problem with Cross's performance.

I think just from the scriptwriters' PoV, they didn't want to make both their protagonists deal with daddy-issues. In the prime universe, it was Spock, this time around it was Kirk... That's not an explanation within the movie so to speak - and I'd have loved to see more of Spock's childhood instead of that stupid Nokia etc. product placement - but I can live with it (as long as we get to see Sarek and more interaction between him and his son in future movies).

 

[FarDreaming]

I can see where you're coming from, but I still disagree.

I think one of the defining sequences of the Sarek character comes from Star Trek V. Granted, I'm reluctant to use ANYTHING from that film, but it bears noting that, apparently, when Spock was born, Sarek looked at him, bitterly disappointed, and pronounced: "So Human." .

One of the reasons that I wanted to see the birth scene in this movie, is cause the STV scene is so much garbage-- lets face it, 1) Sarek is not stupid, he knows you mess with a human, you get a half-human child, and 2) if this scene were in fact Spock reliving his own birth, it wouldn't be from across the room, as a 3rd party observer! IF I were to look at STV as canon, which I do not, I would have to say that this is NOT actually what happened at Spock's birth, but what Sybok read of Spock's fear of what happened at his birth.

To base your opinion of Sarek on this scene alone, I might well paint you with the j title as well. With the exception of Babel, I never in TAS or any of the movies saw a less than caring father. In fact, the scene in Kirk's apartment shows so much a grieving parent in so few actions, it is the core of what was lacking in Cross's performance for me. And as for Babel, well, we don't know enough about how Vulcan society works, and Sarek's actions might be the only ones that his society permits him to have. Do I agree that Sarek is stubborn, that he does not like to be wrong? Yes. Do I think this means he does not care for his son- love his son- in TOS? Most certainly not.

 

[Cakes488]

I think it's ok to ask them here at the BBS; we come here to talk about it, because in RL nobody would.

Yes it's OK and without questions there would be no threads...but this is a rhetorical question so it doesn't need to be posed.

 

[RobertScorpio]

new Sarek

So, now we come to another supporting character. And I think, again, the casting was brilliant. I liked the new Sarek. He conveyed Lenard's regal/importance. I liked the two scene with him and Spock. The one after the school fight; and the one in the transporter room.

I would have loved to have seen Sarek and oldSpock together.

Anyway...just as with Mccoy, and Scotty and Uhura and Sulu, JJ proves his mettle here by casting the supporting staff as good as he did with the main leads; Kirk and Spock.

Two thumbs...I mean...two ears up!!!

Rob

 

[Cakes488]

Re: new SAREK

Well I'm proud that I casted my vote first... my boss would be thrilled too LOL....and we all know who for. I'll be very suprised if this poll doesn't turn out massively lopsided for Lenard.

This Cross fella was good...but I'll stop short of saying he's "great"....

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: new SAREK

Nu Sarek nailed it. He's as good as Lenard.

 

[Jeri]

I think it's ok to ask them here at the BBS; we come here to talk about it, because in RL nobody would.

Yes it's OK and without questions there would be no threads...but this is a rhetorical question so it doesn't need to be posed.

Well, thank goodness you're not in charge. Interesting info comes out of common questions, I've noted over the years.

 

[Sci]

I can see where you're coming from, but I still disagree.

I think one of the defining sequences of the Sarek character comes from Star Trek V. Granted, I'm reluctant to use ANYTHING from that film, but it bears noting that, apparently, when Spock was born, Sarek looked at him, bitterly disappointed, and pronounced: "So Human." .

One of the reasons that I wanted to see the birth scene in this movie, is cause the STV scene is so much garbage-- lets face it, 1) Sarek is not stupid, he knows you mess with a human, you get a half-human child, and 2) if this scene were in fact Spock reliving his own birth, it wouldn't be from across the room, as a 3rd party observer! IF I were to look at STV as canon, which I do not, I would have to say that this is NOT actually what happened at Spock's birth, but what Sybok read of Spock's fear of what happened at his birth.

Whether you want it to be canonical or not, it is. CBS and Paramount define the canon, and ST5 is canonical.

Now, was Sarek being stupid? I don't think so. He knew his child would be half-Human, certainly. But sometimes seeing something is different from knowing it abstractly. And, frankly, people can be irrational -- even Vulcans. Sarek never knew what to make of his half-Human son.

To base your opinion of Sarek on this scene alone, I might well paint you with the j title as well.

If you had actually read my previous comments, you'll see that I based my opinion of Sarek on a combination of that scene, his 18-year alienation from Spock after Spock entered Starfleet Academy, on his semi-hostile relationship with his son when the both of them were talking, and on his subsequent decision to cut off his relationship with Spock again in the 24th Century when they had a public disagreement over how to treat the Cardassians. I did not base my opinion of Sarek upon that scene alone.

With the exception of Babel, I never in TAS or any of the movies saw a less than caring father. In fact, the scene in Kirk's apartment shows so much a grieving parent in so few actions, it is the core of what was lacking in Cross's performance for me.

Sure. I never said that Sarek didn't love his son. He does, and the death of his son was awful for him. But that doesn't mean he had a good or healthy relationship with his son, and it doesn't mean that he wasn't a jerk. People can love each other very dearly and still treat them like crap.

And as for Babel, well, we don't know enough about how Vulcan society works, and Sarek's actions might be the only ones that his society permits him to have.

There were plenty of other Vulcans in Starfleet -- including, for instance, the entire crew of the Intrepid. Further, if Vulcan society allowed no other response, they would not have been able to have their reapproachment in "Journey to Babel." There's no reason whatsoever to think that Vulcan society demanded that he cut off his relationship with his son over Spock's entering Starfleet. Sarek not speaking to his son was Sarek being a jerk.

Do I agree that Sarek is stubborn, that he does not like to be wrong? Yes. Do I think this means he does not care for his son- love his son- in TOS? Most certainly not.

Once again, I did not say he does not care for or love his son. I said he's a jerk to him who doesn't know what to make of him or how to have a good relationship with him.

 

[Cakes488]

Re: new SAREK

^^^ Ok but I see you still didn't vote for him!

 

[Similitude]

Re: new SAREK

New Sarek was excellent.

 

[KimMH]

Re: new SAREK

no one objects to letting the new guy give it a whack. I'm very proud of us all.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: new SAREK

So, now we come to another supporting character. And I think, again, the casting was brilliant. I liked the new Sarek. He conveyed Lenard's regal/importance. I liked the two scene with him and Spock. The one after the school fight; and the one in the transporter room.

I would have loved to have seen Sarek and oldSpock together.

Anyway...just as with Mccoy, and Scotty and Uhura and Sulu, JJ proves his mettle here by casting the supporting staff as good as he did with the main leads; Kirk and Spock.

Two thumbs...I mean...two ears up!!!

Rob

We've already got a thread about the two actors who played Sarek, as I'm sure you're aware. Merging.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Nope..totally unaware. But thankfully, you're always there. Just like STATE FARM. I will sing you a song...

And Like a good neighbor...Mshrank is there...

Back on subject..

I like the new Spock. Mark Lenard will always not only be Sarek, but the best Vulcan actor of them all (yes even better than Nimoy)

Rob

 

[KimMH]

^^^ * gasps audibly *