Beaming into the Narada

[Crazy Eddie]

The beaming technique used by Scotty to get Kirk and Spock to the Narada was a totally different type then the type used to get Scotty and Kirk on the Enterprise. That one didn't require future information.

Yet the laws of physics demand that transporters are limited by the speed of light.

Since when? Subspace radio isn't, and transporters make use of a "subspace domain" of some kind as per "Best of Both Worlds."

They convert matter into energy, and beam it at the speed of light to its destination, where it rematerialises.

Strictly speaking, they break matter apart and them beam it somewhere else on a carrier wave. Anyway, it's obvious in the Trekiverse that it's possible to move things at FTL velocities without much of a problem, so why not a transporter beam?

 

[Pauln6]

Unless they utilised the 'transwarp-beaming' formula, and in inventing this rather clumsy plot-device, JJ Abrams has inadvertently made all Starships obsolete!!!

The Dominion's transporters were capable of beaming people from a distance of at least three light years away.

Also this isn't the first time such plot devices have been used, you have ones like the the subspace transporter from the TNG season seven episode "Bloodlines". That had a range of about several light years, though was unreliable if I recall correctly. There was also the folded-space transporter from the TNG episode "The High Ground". A similar device was seen being used in the Voyager episode "Prime Factors".

Much like these examples the new transporter ability will soon be forgotten about in no time.

Only that Voyager and Next Generation take place 100 years after TOS. And even then it was very unusual technology.


I was already face palming when all Scotty had to do was to enter a little "formula" so his little transporter was able to beam them across several lightyears on a ship moving at warp. So the hardware and power source were fully capable of doing that already or what? That's nonsense. When you want to boost the transmission range of a signal, you need to build a more powerful antenna for that. And in the case of beaming, you need to know where you are beaming to. So when you have a sensor that can detect stuff in a 1,000 km range, you will need to build a completely new sensor to be able to detect anything in a 1,000,000 km range. You can't do that by simply applying a new algorithm. The hardware needs to be heavily modified.

I agree completely. Trek physics may abuse the known laws of physics but at least it has developed some kind of internal logic over the years. This was offensive! When added to the Earth to Vulcan cock up, the mystery of red matter and its effects on supernovas that threaten the universe (dramatic pause) it makes me wish Nero had succeeded.

I imagine the scipt meeting resembled an Itchy and Scratchy script meeting.

 

[Tom Servo]

The Dominion's transporters were capable of beaming people from a distance of at least three light years away.

Also this isn't the first time such plot devices have been used, you have ones like the the subspace transporter from the TNG season seven episode "Bloodlines". That had a range of about several light years, though was unreliable if I recall correctly. There was also the folded-space transporter from the TNG episode "The High Ground". A similar device was seen being used in the Voyager episode "Prime Factors".

Much like these examples the new transporter ability will soon be forgotten about in no time.

Only that Voyager and Next Generation take place 100 years after TOS. And even then it was very unusual technology.


I was already face palming when all Scotty had to do was to enter a little "formula" so his little transporter was able to beam them across several lightyears on a ship moving at warp. So the hardware and power source were fully capable of doing that already or what? That's nonsense. When you want to boost the transmission range of a signal, you need to build a more powerful antenna for that. And in the case of beaming, you need to know where you are beaming to. So when you have a sensor that can detect stuff in a 1,000 km range, you will need to build a completely new sensor to be able to detect anything in a 1,000,000 km range. You can't do that by simply applying a new algorithm. The hardware needs to be heavily modified.

I agree completely. Trek physics may abuse the known laws of physics but at least it has developed some kind of internal logic over the years. This was offensive! When added to the Earth to Vulcan cock up, the mystery of red matter and its effects on supernovas that threaten the universe (dramatic pause) it makes me wish Nero had succeeded.

I imagine the scipt meeting resembled an Itchy and Scratchy script meeting.

"This was offensive..."

Only Trek fans...

 

[SalvorHardin]

Hmmm... modified, more powerful transporter machinery.

Perhaps like those Scotty was using for his experiments in transporting objects from planet to planet, something regular transporters could not do ?

And which he perhaps had time to modify & refine even more while stuck on Delta Vega ?
And while he was already thinking & probably even acting on the transwarp beaming theory as for example his "I had never thought of space as the thing moving" line suggests ?

 

[Pauln6]

"This was offensive..."

Only Trek fans...

Yes, but we're the only ones who matter

 

[Trekker4747]

As I said up-thread the "transwarp beaming" may likely be the dimensional-shift beaming seen in "The High Ground" -which was said to make DNA unstable, it was lethal. That style of beaming could be what Scotty's formula was about and it's likely it's deleterious effects will be discovered and the technology abandoned.

But in "The High Ground" it was shown to be capable of beaming across stellar distances and through shields.

As for Scotty's transporter being able to do it, he may have been tinkering with it wanting to continue his research so it was already equipped to do it he just needed to know how to progam it. Spock's providing of the formula set him down the right path as evidenced when he said, "Huh, I never thought to think of space as the thing that is moving!"

In the time between they made their plan and getting to Titan Scotty was able to re-equip the Enterprise's transporters and enter his new understaning of the formula.

As for this technology being able to do things it shouldn't, technicaly, be able to do for decades? In a TOS episode the Kelvins came aboard and using Starfleet technology available on the Enterprise, turned the ship ino an intergalactic one. So, oviously, Starfleet tech is capable of more than it is.

 

[Pauln6]

Hmmm... modified, more powerful transporter machinery.

Perhaps like those Scotty was using for his experiments in transporting objects from planet to planet, something regular transporters could not do ?

And which he perhaps had time to modify & refine even more while stuck on Delta Vega ?
And while he was already thinking & probably even acting on the transwarp beaming theory as for example his "I had never thought of space as the thing moving" line suggests ?

Yes that just about gives some justification as to why the transwarp beaming was even possible but it doesn't really explain how they could target a single ship that must have been light years away (given its speed and the amount of time taken for Kirk to reach the base) with TOS era scanning and transporter technology. Beaming at warp is one thing but beaming light years at warp took it too far.

I also can't help wondering why Scotty seemed unaware of Kirk's presence as well. One would hope that a life pod emitting an emergency signal would be automatically picked up by a Federation base that was just a few km away. Why didn't they go to collect him - he could have been bleeding to death!

 

[JarodRussell]

But in "The High Ground" it was shown to be capable of beaming across stellar distances and through shields.

Through shields, yes, but not stellar distances. The Enterprise was in orbit of the planet, and that makes the distance less than 40,000 km.

And then again, that happens 100 years after TOS!

 

[Jeri]

The escape pod told Kirk to wait, so the station personnel were expected to collect him; the desultory way Scotty was hanging about his desk, though, leads me to think he might not deem it necessary to check the monitors for alerts very often.

 

[lucas1701]

The beaming technique used by Scotty to get Kirk and Spock to the Narada was a totally different type then the type used to get Scotty and Kirk on the Enterprise. That one didn't require future information.

Yet the laws of physics demand that transporters are limited by the speed of light.

Since when? Subspace radio isn't, and transporters make use of a "subspace domain" of some kind as per "Best of Both Worlds."

They convert matter into energy, and beam it at the speed of light to its destination, where it rematerialises.

Strictly speaking, they break matter apart and them beam it somewhere else on a carrier wave. Anyway, it's obvious in the Trekiverse that it's possible to move things at FTL velocities without much of a problem, so why not a transporter beam?

In that one post, you have talked yourself out of the need for starships altogether! So why bother with them? if Scotty's tinkering and future meddlers can do whatever they like with the laws of both physics ANDS star trek, then they can beam people across planets, star systems and probably across entire galaxies if the script demands it.

Do you not see the need for even a modicum of plausibility or cohesiveness in Star trek?

 

[Pauln6]

If Scotty's tinkering and future meddlers can do whatever they like with the laws of both physics ANDS star trek, then they can beam people across planets, star systems and probably across entire galaxies if the script demands it.

Do you not see the need for even a modicum of plausibility or cohesiveness in Star trek?

It gets worse though. If the Federation can do it so can everybody else - sooner or later. So the writers either have to come up with convoluted reasons why the Romulan ship doesn't just beam the crew off the Enterprise off the ship and into space from 3 light years away or just ignore it altogether and annoy us further.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Yeah, yeah, speed of plot, I know. If someone wrote a story set in New York, would you say it's reasonable if he got from Brooklyn to Staten Island in a car in just a minute? Because the plot requires it?

Yes. And it happens all the time in TV and movies (and likely books as well).

Isn't the plot flawed then?

Nope.

 

[Tom Servo]

If Scotty's tinkering and future meddlers can do whatever they like with the laws of both physics ANDS star trek, then they can beam people across planets, star systems and probably across entire galaxies if the script demands it.

Do you not see the need for even a modicum of plausibility or cohesiveness in Star trek?

It gets worse though. If the Federation can do it so can everybody else - sooner or later. So the writers either have to come up with convoluted reasons why the Romulan ship doesn't just beam the crew off the Enterprise off the ship and into space from 3 light years away or just ignore it altogether and annoy us further.

The same reason that they have never done it in any of the other shows whenever they had the opportunity to...

Because the writers don't want them to.

The transporter as a plot device has been around ever since TOS. Its not a new thing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yet the laws of physics demand that transporters are limited by the speed of light.

Since when? Subspace radio isn't, and transporters make use of a "subspace domain" of some kind as per "Best of Both Worlds."

They convert matter into energy, and beam it at the speed of light to its destination, where it rematerialises.

Strictly speaking, they break matter apart and them beam it somewhere else on a carrier wave. Anyway, it's obvious in the Trekiverse that it's possible to move things at FTL velocities without much of a problem, so why not a transporter beam?

In that one post, you have talked yourself out of the need for starships altogether! So why bother with them?

Why do we still build ships when airplanes can make the same trip one tenth the travel time? Why do we still build warship when combat aircraft have mastered the art of mid-air refueling?

It really isn't as simple as you think it is.

Do you not see the need for even a modicum of plausibility or cohesiveness in Star trek?

Plausible and cohesive are two things Star Trek has seldom been. Besides, any new technology can be adequately penned in by adding limitations to its practical uses, and if that doesn't work, we can conveniently ignore anything that makes life too easy. Just as Picard totally forgot about Daimon Bok's subspace transporter that apparently does exactly what Scotty's version does.