Spoilers Batwoman - Season 1

[dahj]

Meh, it's a show about a lesbian superhero, it was never going to appeal to pathetic little worms who can't get over the good old days when women knew their place.

But thanks for being such predictable whiny little shits and raising awareness for the show by crapping all over the internet on how the trailer murdered your manliness or something I guess...

 

[Christopher]

Anyway, this just looks to me like a story about a woman being proud of her womanhood. The only thing that makes that "political" or controversial is that so many of our current political leaders are trying to crush and oppress women. I have a bigger problem with the system saying that female strength should be silenced than I have with a woman asserting her strength.

 

[Professor Zoom]

This statement alone is terrible in that it somehow implies that demonizing straight white males is ok, and that anything that features them is political. That's ridiculous and false.

There's a huge difference between inclusion and throwing things in people's faces.

I don't need smug liberal writers telling me how to think. There's a time and a place for everything and there's genres for that. The Good Wife was a very good show despite its liberal slant in part because it was not so over the top and actually on occasion, represented conservatives without demonizing them. I can't talk about the spin off, which I hear went full liberal, but that was an original show with original characters in a genre where political topics made sense.

But a superhero show should not be a propaganda machine for liberal ideals.



THIS makes sense. When these shows started, they were not so heavy handed political. They were superhero shows. If I want politics, there are so many avenues for it.



Also, exactly the point. CW clearly has check the box quotas to make sure every liberal stance is covered. I am very much on the fence with Batwoman, and likely not going to watch this one, which says a lot since I really love DC characters.

Oh, no, won’t someone think about the straight white male!

*looks at almost every other show on TV*

Oh.

 

[Reverend]

All of those people you listed started by doing the Bat thing with of for Bruce, and then did their own thing only after they parted ways from him because they came to realize that his way was no longer their way.

Not necessarily all to begin with (Steph was a Robin before she was a Batgirl, and even that had more to do with Barb than Bruce.) But yes, at various point they all wore the cowl. The point being is that generally speaking, the phase where each of them were doing their own thing is often considered the more iconic and successful. Very arguable in the case of Barb, I know. I don't mind admitting I'm more than a little prejudiced in favour of Oracle, partly because that was my first exposure to the character in the comics but also because I honestly think she's a more interesting character.

Batwoman is different, she started doing the Bat thing when Batman wasn't around, so she immediately started doing it her way, not Bruce's. Batwoman is her thing and always was, so why should she have to move away from that identity when Bruce came back? She makes it look good and you can't copyright bats any more than you can copyright tardigrades, so I'm real sorry Bruce but it's your fault you took a year off.

Like I said, by design the character works best without Bruce around. Bringing him back just made things weird IMO.

I also really don't agree she's comes off as resentful of the mantle either in the comics or in this trailer. She just doesn't take shit from Bruce that she's supposed to be his subordinate because he did it first.

Maybe not resentful of the image itself, but certainly that people perceive her as Bruce. She could pick literally ANY other look and the problem evaporates, but no, she's making a conscious decision to co-opt the mantle. But please tell me where exactly did I say she must be subordinate? I made no such implication. I'm just saying characters like Supergirl and Mile Morales manage to do this without coming off looking insecure and more than a little hypocritical in their attitudes towards their counterparts.

Yet again though, it could all just be out of context, but the use of the word "credit" in particular bothers me. It smacks a little of glory hounding. Also, why dress as "The Bat" unless you want people to know it's "The Bat".

 

[Christopher]

but no, she's making a conscious decision to co-opt the mantle.

From the trailer, it seems that her options are more limited than that. It looks like she's trying to rescue her girlfriend from the bad guys, so there's a time limit, and the best resource she has available is the Batman costume and gear. Whatever the baggage attached to it, it's a very effective body armor and combat system, so naturally, as a pragmatist, she uses it. She modifies it to make it her own, but the symbolic aspects are secondary, not important enough to warrant starting over completely. They're not the only reason she's doing this.

 

[Reverend]

From the trailer, it seems that her options are more limited than that. It looks like she's trying to rescue her girlfriend from the bad guys, so there's a time limit, and the best resource she has available is the Batman costume and gear. Whatever the baggage attached to it, it's a very effective body armor and combat system, so naturally, as a pragmatist, she uses it. She modifies it to make it her own, but the symbolic aspects are secondary, not important enough to warrant starting over completely. They're not the only reason she's doing this.

None of this is in dispute.

 

[Soong-type Android]

This Batwoman series reminds me a bit of Birds of Prey. Does anyone remember that being on?

The series is set in New Gotham City, several years after it has been apparently abandoned by Batman. In his absence, Oracle (Barbara Gordon) and the Huntress (Helena Kyle) have taken over his war on crime. The two are joined by Dinah Redmond, a telepath (after she assists them in defeating Larry Ketterly); Alfred Pennyworth, who serves Helena as she is heir to the Wayne estate; and Detective Jesse Reese, a police officer confronted with crimes and abilities he cannot explain.

 

[Greg Cox]

This Batwoman series reminds me a bit of Birds of Prey. Does anyone remember that being on?

Features one of the same actresses, too. Alice in BATWOMAN was Diana in BIRDS OF PREY.

 

[dahj]

But please tell me where exactly did I say she must be subordinate? I made no such implication.

Never said you did. You implied she was resentful of the mantle in the comics, I just said that the only times I recall her being a bat was commented on in the comics was when Bruce offered her to join his posse(under his rules) and she wasn't resentful about it, she was sassy.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Wait. Is that why she's red? Cuz the Commie agenda?

 

[Reverend]

Never said you did. You implied she was resentful of the mantle in the comics, I just said that the only times I recall her being a bat was commented on in the comics was when Bruce offered her to join his posse(under his rules) and she wasn't resentful about it, she was sassy.

I think we're getting our wires crossed between the comics and the show.
I meant that the trailer made it seem as if she resents being mistaken for Batman. Which seems nonsensical to me on several levels.

My issue with her portrayal in the comics (what little I read; it's been quite a while since I even tried keeping up with mainstream DC or Marvel) was the way the character presented seems ill suited to a world that also contains Batman.
Again, that was by design so it's not a flaw in the character in and of itself, but in the larger editorial decisions that (to me at least) made the book feel weird in that context.

 

[The Realist]

pathetic little worms ... whiny little shits

Who do I need to see about having MRAs officially rebranded with one of these more-accurate phrases?

 

[The Realist]

This statement alone is terrible in that it somehow implies that demonizing straight white males is ok, and that anything that features them is political. That's ridiculous and false.

There's a huge difference between inclusion and throwing things in people's faces.

I don't need smug liberal writers telling me how to think. There's a time and a place for everything and there's genres for that. The Good Wife was a very good show despite its liberal slant in part because it was not so over the top and actually on occasion, represented conservatives without demonizing them. I can't talk about the spin off, which I hear went full liberal, but that was an original show with original characters in a genre where political topics made sense.

But a superhero show should not be a propaganda machine for liberal ideals.



THIS makes sense. When these shows started, they were not so heavy handed political. They were superhero shows. If I want politics, there are so many avenues for it.



Also, exactly the point. CW clearly has check the box quotas to make sure every liberal stance is covered. I am very much on the fence with Batwoman, and likely not going to watch this one, which says a lot since I really love DC characters.

I love how you complain bitterly about straight white males and conservatives being "demonized," while incorporating so many of the reasons why that happens in the very same post. It's like some kind of unintentional performance art.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I love how you complain bitterly about straight white males and conservatives being "demonized," while incorporating so many of the reasons why that happens in the very same post. It's like some kind of unintentional performance art.

It's almost mesmerizing. Like a lava lamp.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Also, on the notion that superhero shows being political, the very first season of "Arrow" (you know, the show that started this shared universe) had the titular hero going after evil One-Percenters, right when in RL the Occupy movement was going on.

 

[Christopher]

Also, on the notion that superhero shows being political, the very first season of "Arrow" (you know, the show that started this shared universe) had the titular hero going after evil One-Percenters, right when in RL the Occupy movement was going on.

While being a billionaire himself, so that didn't quite track.

I've always been disappointed at how rarely Arrow engaged with any real political issues, even throughout Ollie's entire campaign and service as mayor. The comics' Oliver Queen is a diehard liberal activist type, but the show's Ollie rarely took a stand more controversial than "crime is bad." There was that one gun-control episode, but that was about it.

 

[crookeddy]

Meh, it's a show about a lesbian superhero, it was never going to appeal to pathetic little worms who can't get over the good old days when women knew their place.

But thanks for being such predictable whiny little shits and raising awareness for the show by crapping all over the internet on how the trailer murdered your manliness or something I guess...

Literally one person is doing anything even remotely close to what you are whining about...

 

[JD]

I remember when Hong Kong martial-arts star Sammo Hung appeared in Martial Law, a TV series attempting to knock off the success of Jackie Chan's Rush Hour films by getting Chan's real-life mentor to star in a similar role. Hung was an incredible martial artist but barely spoke English and thus wasn't able to act that well in the language (he's much better in Cantonese), and in the second season, the new writing staff finally figured out how to turn that into an asset, by writing him as a very stoic and reserved character who was reluctant to open up about his feelings, and focused on how the characters around him reacted to that and tried to draw him out. So they turned his lack of expressiveness into something that revealed his personality and informed his relationships with the other characters, which I found very clever.

This is actually kind of funny, because according to Wikipedia at least part of the reason the show ended was because Sammo was frustrated by the way they wrote his character in Season 2, and decided he didn't want to do it any more.

It wasn't one line in the trailer that bothered me. It was the whole thing. The whole attitude. The whole girl confuses her with Batman scene was just there to deliver her man hating line.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

Substitute a race for gender there and maybe you'll get the point. Also, why should she care? If she was mistaken for Batman, that might be good for her, since it makes it that much harder to deduce her identity. Why should she have a chip on her shoulder or an ego?

Because she's not Batman, and wants to make sure people know that in the future.

These aren't perceived sexism attitudes. They are sexism attitudes. If writers have to put down and weaken male characters to make females look stronger, they are doing the exact opposite and making them look weaker.

There is not one place in this trailer where that happens.

This statement alone is terrible in that it somehow implies that demonizing straight white males is ok, and that anything that features them is political. That's ridiculous and false.

That never happened in the trailer, and I haven't seen anyone but you bring it up here.
I'm seriously starting to think you are halucinating or something, because none of the stuff you are talking about is happening.

There's a huge difference between inclusion and throwing things in people's faces

.
And that is not what's happening here.

I don't need smug liberal writers telling me how to think. There's a time and a place for everything and there's genres for that. The Good Wife was a very good show despite its liberal slant in part because it was not so over the top and actually on occasion, represented conservatives without demonizing them. I can't talk about the spin off, which I hear went full liberal, but that was an original show with original characters in a genre where political topics made sense.

Nobody is telling you what to think.

But a superhero show should not be a propaganda machine for liberal ideals.

It's a bit sad that just having a strong woman in the lead is suddenly "propaganda".

THIS makes sense. When these shows started, they were not so heavy handed political. They were superhero shows. If I want politics, there are so many avenues for it.

Politics have been part of superheroes for decades, so of course they are going to make their way into the shows too.

Also, exactly the point. CW clearly has check the box quotas to make sure every liberal stance is covered. I am very much on the fence with Batwoman, and likely not going to watch this one, which says a lot since I really love DC characters.

Oh thank you so much, at least this means we won't have to put up with this shit every fucking week.

 

[Ovation]

Literally one person is doing anything even remotely close to what you are whining about...

Having read dodge's posts for quite some time now (I'm old, so I've been around a while), I feel confident it was not exclusively aimed at shenanigans around here--she's shown, on multiple occasions, the (gasp!) remarkable ability to comment cogently on things both in and out of Trek BBS simultaneously.

 

[crookeddy]

Having read dodge's posts for quite some time now (I'm old, so I've been around a while), I feel confident it was not exclusively aimed at shenanigans around here--she's shown, on multiple occasions, the (gasp!) remarkable ability to comment cogently on things both in and out of Trek BBS simultaneously.

What's outside Trek BBS???