Not really; this show merely recontextualizes Oliver's insistence that Batman wasn't real even more firmly as mildly egocentric denial rather than actual fact.
Spoilers Batwoman - Season 1
- Thread starter dahj
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Not really; this show merely recontextualizes Oliver's insistence that Batman wasn't real even more firmly as mildly egocentric denial rather than actual fact.
The pilot was pretty good. It definitely got me intrigued and wanting to see more. The world-building was good. The premise is solid. Ruby Rose actually does a pretty good job as Kane. Some people were worried about her acting skills but I think she is ok. Obviously, not the greatest actress but definitely passable for a CW show.
Also, her line about the suit being perfect when it fits a woman worked better in the episode than in the trailer. In the trailer, out of context, it felt a bit cringe worthy to me. But in the context of the episode, the line seemed to be her "I am Batwoman" moment. It was her way of saying that she has decided to become Batwoman. It kinda works.
I wonder if the show will ever solve the mystery of Batman's disappearance? I am guessing yes, since they make such a big deal about it in the pilot.
I could see the writers taking three paths:
1) They never resolve the mystery. Batman is gone and Batwoman has filled the void he left.
2) The resolve the mystery but Batman stays gone.
3) They resolve the mytery and Batman returns for the big epic season finale. Batman and Batwoman join forces against the big season villain. After they save the say, Batman leaves again but gives Batwoman his blessing to carry on his work in Gotham.
Also, her line about the suit being perfect when it fits a woman worked better in the episode than in the trailer. In the trailer, out of context, it felt a bit cringe worthy to me. But in the context of the episode, the line seemed to be her "I am Batwoman" moment. It was her way of saying that she has decided to become Batwoman. It kinda works.
I wonder if the show will ever solve the mystery of Batman's disappearance? I am guessing yes, since they make such a big deal about it in the pilot.
I could see the writers taking three paths:
1) They never resolve the mystery. Batman is gone and Batwoman has filled the void he left.
2) The resolve the mystery but Batman stays gone.
3) They resolve the mytery and Batman returns for the big epic season finale. Batman and Batwoman join forces against the big season villain. After they save the say, Batman leaves again but gives Batwoman his blessing to carry on his work in Gotham.
While I doubt they plan to ever include much of the other shows outside of the crossover(s). One thing to consider is Bruce's disappearance would have occurred not long after Ollie killed Ra's.
I honestly see zero narrative reason for them to ever bring Batman into this series.
We might see Bruce Wayne in flashbacks - or even as a recurring presence - at some point, but seeing Bruce isn't the same as seeing "The Bat".
We might see Bruce Wayne in flashbacks - or even as a recurring presence - at some point, but seeing Bruce isn't the same as seeing "The Bat".
You could have written the same post after the SG pilot.
This statement is incorrect.
The distinct difference between Batwoman and Supergirl is that Supergirl wasn't replacing Superman; she was coming into her own as a hero in a world where he was both present and active, and it was therefore only a matter of time - both in-universe and out-of-universe - before their paths crossed.
Kate, on the other hand, has come into a world where Bruce is neither present NOR active in either his 'secret identity' or his 'true identity (Bruce Wayne and Batman, respectively), and so bringing him back in the latter capacity (as Batman) carries no narrative importance the way that Supergirl teaming up with her cousin did, and so him appearing in the cape and cowl would just overshadow her.
Bringing him into the picture through flashbacks or as an actual physical recurring presence, however, would carry narrative importance because of how the Pilot establishes connections between him - as a person - and four of the series' main characters: Kate, Jacob, Alice, and Luke Fox.
His role in this series, if he has one, would be as a civilian, not as the "Caped Crusader".
That's all irrelevant. Any reason to include Bruce (or not) on the show exists beyond the fourth wall. The same was true for Supergirl.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.
Bruce Wayne would have a narrative reason for being included in the series; Batman would not.
And, yes, there is a difference between the two characters, and seeing one does not automatically mean seeing the other.
Very true, but even still it's probably smart not to milk a "mystery" whose solution is only a Wikipedia entry away. Or try to treat it as a big surprise twist several episodes down the road.
CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER faced the same issue and, again, wisely dropped the big reveal that the Winter Soldier was (gasp!) actually Bucky fairly early on in the movie, knowing that that "twist" would not be a surprise to anybody who looked the character up on the internet -- or knew a chatty comic-book fan.
Very true, but even still it's probably smart not to milk a "mystery" whose solution is only a Wikipedia entry away. Or try to treat it as a big surprise twist several episodes down the road.
CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER faced the same issue and, again, wisely dropped the big reveal that the Winter Soldier was (gasp!) actually Bucky fairly early on in the movie, knowing that that "twist" would not be a surprise to anybody who looked the character up on the internet -- or knew a chatty comic-book fan.
Similarly, The Flash last season established early on that the Cicada on most alternate Earths had been the guy he was in the comics, but history had been changed on Earth-1 so that it was actually somebody else. So that let them keep it mysterious without the answer being obvious to comics readers.
And this is why I'm confident that the TV Crisis on Infinite Earths will not have the same ending as the comics' version. It would be quite an anticlimax if it just turned out the way people expected.
I think I saw some articles about set photos or something from Chicago well after the pilot was shot, so we might see it again, but yeah it will be mostly Vancouver.
That's probably just an alias, I bet his real name is Louie Carroll.
Talia's got him, I tells ya.
Considering this show will hopefully have several seasons, much of that narrative has not only not been written, but not even conceived yet so it's a bit early to say what does and doesn't fit in, innit?
Not to mention this kind of stuff routinely gets posted on various comic book and geeky websites under unavoidably spoilery titles....
I... can actually see that.
Unless he reprises his role as Hawkman for Crisis first.
No, because this analysis is based on what we've seen, the stated premise of the series, and the nature of the characters as depicted.
One doesn't have to "wait and see" in order to figure out what makes sense narratively for the series and what doesn't.
I haven't commented on the Pilot itself yet, so here we go (bullet-point-style):
* This is perhaps the most 'formulaic' Arrowverse series since The Flash and the one that feels the most like the series that started it all, Arrow, itself
* Luke was based way too obviously and closely on Curtis Holt for me, but I'm hoping that they'll give him his own character sooner rather than later
* It becomes crystal-clear pretty early on that Alice being Beth was never some big 'secret' that the series intended to hide from the viewers, and I'm honestly not sure why the expectation was that it would be
* I think the expectation is that there will be some kind of eventual love triangle/split between Kate, Sophie, and Tyler, but given how firmly the show has based itself on the Arrow template, I don't think this is as crystal-clear as people might think, and leaves the door open for any onscreen romance involving Kate to come from somewhere - and someone - else
* I've seen some speculation out there that Kate and Beth aren't identical twins here because they're played by actresses of different ages as adults, but there's nothing within the Pilot itself that suggests that the characters aren't identical twins and so until/unless something comes along to explicitly confirm that they're not, I see no reason not to operate under the assumption that they are
* This isn't specified in the Pilot itself as aired (it might have been in the original script), but the day that Gabi, Beth, and Kate were knocked off the road was the day of Kate and Beth's bat mitzvah, and the necklaces that they were wearing were likely bat mitzvah gifts from either their parents or someone else
* I find myself wondering what the exact age difference between Bruce, Kate, and Beth is
* Having seen what the Pilot has established Mary's role as, I find myself wondering whether or not she'll actually ever learn that her stepsister and Batwoman are one and the same person (I'd previously thought it was an inevitability)
* Mary clearly sees Kate as being somebody to look up to, but it doesn't sound like the two characters are particularly close or have interacted with one another all that much
* Maybe it's the tenor of their scene together, but I really don't like Catherine Hamilton-Kane all that much, and don't think she actually loves or cares about either Kate or Mary, which creates an interesting contrast between her and the character she's clearly modeled after, Moira Queen
All in all, this was a very strong premiere episode that set up Kate's story pretty much flawlessly, and I can't wait until next week.
As long as it's without that hideous costume! (Not that Hentschel's was much better.)I
Unless he reprises his role as Hawkman for Crisis first.
Yeah, it was quite obvious that the Crow called "Dodgson" had to be working with Alice. You'd think someone working for a supposedly top-notch security firm would've noticed the connection. Bruce would've spotted it in two seconds.
I'm not getting the significance to that name.
As for the episode, I really enjoyed it.
Ruby Rose was good as Kate, maybe not an Emmy worthy performance, but enough to hold your attention and carry the series.
The rest of the cast seems pretty good too, her father actually wasn't as much of an ass as I was expecting. It will be interesting to see where he goes once Kate becomes openly active as Batwoman.
I was surprised they revealed that Alice was Kate's sister so early, I was expecting them to hold that back a little while. I guess the big question with her will be how she survived and what happened to her afterwards.
I was a little surprised by how little attention was given to Bruce's disappearance. I had been expecting that to a big arc for the season, but it looks like it's going to be more of a background thing, at least for now. I'm still expecting it to come into play somewhere, and for him to eventually show up, even if it's several seasons down the line. If they were definitely set on never having him appear at all, they would have killed him off. By having him gone, they've got him out of the picture, but they've still left things open for a potential future role on the show.
I'm curious if they're going to do more with the rope holding the Kane's car before it fell into the river. That felt like it could have been a set up for a bigger arc.
As for the episode, I really enjoyed it.
Ruby Rose was good as Kate, maybe not an Emmy worthy performance, but enough to hold your attention and carry the series.
The rest of the cast seems pretty good too, her father actually wasn't as much of an ass as I was expecting. It will be interesting to see where he goes once Kate becomes openly active as Batwoman.
I was surprised they revealed that Alice was Kate's sister so early, I was expecting them to hold that back a little while. I guess the big question with her will be how she survived and what happened to her afterwards.
I was a little surprised by how little attention was given to Bruce's disappearance. I had been expecting that to a big arc for the season, but it looks like it's going to be more of a background thing, at least for now. I'm still expecting it to come into play somewhere, and for him to eventually show up, even if it's several seasons down the line. If they were definitely set on never having him appear at all, they would have killed him off. By having him gone, they've got him out of the picture, but they've still left things open for a potential future role on the show.
I'm curious if they're going to do more with the rope holding the Kane's car before it fell into the river. That felt like it could have been a set up for a bigger arc.
The recent comics have brought a Thomas Wayne from an alternate universe into the main one, so he's kind of dealing with the real thing now too.
I had thought maybe the flashbacks were just before Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed.
Well, the series as it is now. The Arrowverse shows have all gone through some pretty massive shifts over the seasons, so I think it's a bit premature to start saying certain things will never happen. Like I said earlier, if they were absolutely positive they were never going to have Bruce or Batman on the show, they would have killed him off, rather than having him be gone.
I think it's pretty safe to rule that out since they pretty clearly weren't played by the same actress in the flashbacks.
I've been wonder if she might end up becoming their version of Flamebird eventually.
As Greg said, it's already well-known to fans of the comics, and has been talked about openly on comics and media-news sites, so they presumably figured it would be a waste of time trying to keep it secret, and an anticlimax for comics-savvy viewers.
They're basically doing the same thing Birds of Prey did -- Batman alive but retired and gone from Gotham, the question of his potential return not really an issue. Although there, it wasn't a mystery why he'd left.
It would've had to be more than 8 years ago. It didn't seem like it was quite that long.