Wait it's only been a few months since NuBSG ended? For some reason it felt longer then that to me.
Battlestar to get a more colorful upbeat reboot?
- Thread starter TheMasterOfOrion
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Wait it's only been a few months since NuBSG ended? For some reason it felt longer then that to me.
Geez.
If you even read my entire (less than two line) post, you would know that that's not even in the same zipcode compared to what I meant. Ok, flesh-and-blood machines and angels aren't "real". I kinda guessed that, and I'm sure most people can. I was talking about how they behave, how they react to things. People do not always make the right or moral decision like most shows depict. BSG shows people (or machines or angels, just to clear that up) acting like people.
stj's comments aside, I still question the notion that the characters in nuBSG were "more realistic" than what we usually see on TV. I get that, oftentimes, TV shows a far-too-rosy view of how people behave. And I give credit to BSG for illuminating the darker elements of human nature, but I reject the notion that the characters in BSG reflect a "real" cross-section of humanity. They over-react (most often negatively) far too often to be a true, balanced portrayal of how "people" would react in similar circumstances.
IMO, of course.
IMO, of course.
I suppose that is an awfully blanket statement. What do we mean when we say they're "more realistic" and more importantly, what television shows are we comparing them to? I don't think the characters act out any more than the characters of another oft-praised television series (one that I tend to consider the best, and the most realistic, ever made): The Wire. McNulty is more of a fuck-up than Starbuck, and yet is constantly described as the golden child of police officers. That's an interesting comparison between series waiting to be made, I think.
Unfortunately, I don't think I've seen even a second of The Wire, so I've no way to compare it to BSG. But as far as my statement:
All this may simply rest on how each of us sees "humanity" in general. While I tend to see "humanity" as capable of everything we see in nuBSG ... I also see "humanity" as just as likely to find a reasonable, rational solution to conflict as it is likely to react in the way nuBSG characters seem to react (at least to me). To me, nuBSG doesn't go far enough to acknowledge the inherent good in "humanity." Instead, it seems (again, IMO) to tilt toward darker, more melodramatic reactions to generate and perpetuate the "drama" of the show.
"I reject the notion that the characters in BSG reflect a "real" cross-section of humanity. They over-react (most often negatively) far too often to be a true, balanced portrayal of how "people" would react in similar circumstances."
goes ... it *is* a generalization of the series as a whole, but one based on my observations of how characters repeatedly reacted to conflict. This may be purely a subjective argument but, at least in my opinion, nuBSG doesn't represent how a comparative sample "real people" would react to similar circumstances. I don't see humanity resorting to the worst possible reactions to conflict possible -- as often and as readily as the nuBSG characters seem to do.
All this may simply rest on how each of us sees "humanity" in general. While I tend to see "humanity" as capable of everything we see in nuBSG ... I also see "humanity" as just as likely to find a reasonable, rational solution to conflict as it is likely to react in the way nuBSG characters seem to react (at least to me). To me, nuBSG doesn't go far enough to acknowledge the inherent good in "humanity." Instead, it seems (again, IMO) to tilt toward darker, more melodramatic reactions to generate and perpetuate the "drama" of the show.
Well, another thing to consider is unlike many science fiction series (Most of the Star Trek franchise as well as most of Stargate) Battlestar Galactica does not present a group of protagonists who are anywhere close to the best and the brightest humanity has to offer. In many ways they're a cross-section of humanity's outcasts, mistfits, and washouts. They're just the ones who survived.
Roslin is so far down in the order of succession to the Presidency that even Baltar (who personally knows President Adar) cannot recognize her. She's resigned herself to get out of politics (indeed, as we learn, has been asked to get out) so that she can become a school teacher again, or in the very least die in peace.
Much a point is made in Act of Contrition and You Can't Go Home Again that the fleet is forced to take on pilots that would have washed out (indeed, some of them did) under normal circumstances. But with a dwindling population, they're the best available.
Cally didn't even want to be a deckhand--she was just trying to pay for dental school. Lee didn't want a career in the military, either, floating through the reserves based on aptitude, but not enthusiasm. Starbuck was a good pilot, but had such a discipline problem that nobody in the Colonial Fleet would have her except for Adama, who himself was being put out to pasture by the military establishment as the series began.
I could probably describe every character in this way, save for Baltar, who truly is humanity's brightest--just not their best. And I think that's worth considering when you see how these characters respond to adversity and conflict.
On the other hand, if the only thing you take away from this is run and watch the entirety of The Wire this instant, that's good enough for me. It's far more worthy of analysis and debate than Battlestar Galactica, as much as I value that series.
Roslin is so far down in the order of succession to the Presidency that even Baltar (who personally knows President Adar) cannot recognize her. She's resigned herself to get out of politics (indeed, as we learn, has been asked to get out) so that she can become a school teacher again, or in the very least die in peace.
Much a point is made in Act of Contrition and You Can't Go Home Again that the fleet is forced to take on pilots that would have washed out (indeed, some of them did) under normal circumstances. But with a dwindling population, they're the best available.
Cally didn't even want to be a deckhand--she was just trying to pay for dental school. Lee didn't want a career in the military, either, floating through the reserves based on aptitude, but not enthusiasm. Starbuck was a good pilot, but had such a discipline problem that nobody in the Colonial Fleet would have her except for Adama, who himself was being put out to pasture by the military establishment as the series began.
I could probably describe every character in this way, save for Baltar, who truly is humanity's brightest--just not their best. And I think that's worth considering when you see how these characters respond to adversity and conflict.
On the other hand, if the only thing you take away from this is run and watch the entirety of The Wire this instant, that's good enough for me. It's far more worthy of analysis and debate than Battlestar Galactica, as much as I value that series.
I don't think that's true of any of the franchise shows you've mentioned, the Star Trek characters are the best that humanity has to offer they just represent where humanity is at that stage. And the Stargate characters are far from perfect as well. Nor is that true of the original Galactica characters either for that matter, while Apollo, Starbuck and Boomer were all great pilots and Adama was a great battlester commander despite the Imperious Leader's hatred for Adama in the first two books I can't call him the best since he kind of folded up around Cain.
The thing is that I do think that people want and need more rounded characters, capable of being both serious and showing other sides to their personalities, something we didn't always get to see on the new Battlestar Galactica since they wanted to put more ainst into their characters.
McNulty's problem is that he gets obsessed with the work, to the point of running roughshod over orders and politics. He takes shit for it and rebels in his own (sometimes destructive) ways as a result.
That's why he was happiest in season 4. Just being a patrolman again allowed him to do good without getting too into any one case. He even managed to get a decent relationship going. But I'm starting on season 5 now.....he's been back in Major Crimes for two episodes and he's already devolving back to his old habits. It's sad, really.
If Battlestar is dark for showing despair over the apocalypse, then The Wire is dark for showing despair over the state of things today.
nuBSG definitely deserves credit for its conceptualizations of these characters -- trying to get a representation of as many "walks of life" as reasonably possible on the show. And I appreciate the fact that the series explored the darker elements of human nature. These are certainly worthy of praise, but these are successes established by the miniseries. As the series progressed, the characters defaulted (at least it seemed that way to me) to angst and darker elements, without providing a more balanced approach.
Well, I am definitely intrigued now. Maybe I'll get the first disc on Netflix and give it a shot. If it's as deep as you say, it'll be worth exploring and analyzing.
You know, I never thought I would admit this, but you have given me a new perspective on this show. That, after all is the whole point of my planned rewatch of the DVD's.
Humanity was blown away, and only the scumbags survived. Got it.
Not a fan of any of this prisoner in space business but Hatch IMO should have been given at least some of the rights for Battlestar. After the original run all guys like Larson and Moore ever did was crashing the ship further into the ground.
That was fertile ground.
Personally I think it may actually be a little too early for a remake, I mean about 2 million watched the re-imagined and many started to abandon the ship as it sunk
The current state of BSG fandom
http://frakheads.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=5301&start=0
Except that the Cylons were even more pathetic. Their leader was obviously insane but they just followed him blindly like idiots, committing genocide and then compounding their idiocy by imagining they could ever be "forgiven" for such an atrocity (and I didn't buy it for ten seconds that humans really would forgive; for them to ally with the Cylons long enough to get what they wanted, and then turn around and exterminate them without mercy is more realistic.)
BSG's situation was that you had two groups who could never logically ever be able to trust each other, so one side or the other had to die. The only reason this didn't happen is some hand-waving religious mumbo-jumbo inserted into the story because to really tell this story in the harsh, totally honest way was too much for RDM's liberal sensibilities. Instead they all had to hold hands in the end and sing kum-bay-yah. Ugh. I would have just slaughtered the entire cast at the end, rather than make the audience suffer through such bullshit.
BSG definitely did not make it easy on us to sympathize with the characters, which is one thing I really respect about it. In fact, they should have been tougher on this score. Trying to make us like the Cylons by showing how much, for instance, Six had changed in her attitudes (aw, poor widdle Cylon) was truly nausea-inducing. Ultimately, I thought the humans did okay given the circumstances, but my utter contempt for the boneheaded way the Cylons were written made the series hard to take sometimes.
It was a mixed bag, but a lot more ambitious, creative and daring than most of the crap on TV, so on balance, it was worthwhile. RDM should have had the courage of his convictions and made BSG even darker, harder to swallow, and more uncompromising dark and despairing than it even was.
Bizarrely enough, that doesn't mean I won't watch a BSG remake that is light & fluffy & not at all challenging to the audience. As long as that isn't its apparent goal, I won't mark down its score because it didn't achieve it.
stj's comments aside, I still question the notion that the characters in nuBSG were "more realistic" than what we usually see on TV. I get that, oftentimes, TV shows a far-too-rosy view of how people behave. And I give credit to BSG for illuminating the darker elements of human nature, but I reject the notion that the characters in BSG reflect a "real" cross-section of humanity. They over-react (most often negatively) far too often to be a true, balanced portrayal of how "people" would react in similar circumstances.
IMO, of course.
I always thought that if you could have ten things go wrong in a person's life, the characters of Galactica had about 8 or 9 of them.
I always thought a great example of that was with Lee. He always had these problems with his father so I thought he had a good relationship with his mother. Nope. Turns out she was a bipolar drunk that made life miserable for Lee and his brother, to the point he still was having trouble talking about it. Lee, Kara, and Dee all had issues with their parents and even Adama had problems with his father. Bill Adama was also estranged from his son and blamed himself for the Cylon invasion. How many more problems can these people have?
Unfortuneately, Ron Moore couldn't be bothered to put any time into the long-term story development. Character comes first I agree. But if they don't have a story to go with it, the show suffers. I hope everyone involved in Caprica can exactly be bothered to do more than five minutes of future story development.
Now that Bryan Singer is developing a new/retro movie version of Battlestar Galactica, the real question is: What will everything look like?
http://scifiwire.com/2009/09/what-could-bryan-singers.php
Concept artist Eric Chu, writing in CinemaSpy, has come up with some cool designs that hearken back to those of the 1978 TV series, with a few tweaks to update them. And look! A Daggett!
Bryan Singer apponte sur le Galactica
http://www.fantasy.fr/articles/view/11277/bryan-singer-apponte-sur-le-galactica
French site says there is info Bryan Singer is currently working with Glen Larson. A new X-Men or Superman has been but on hold, the battlestar will be nothing like RDM or David Eicks and there is little chance Ronald D. Moore participates in the film. Singer and Larson are talking about pushing the franchise in a new direction, its unlikley Moore and Larson will talk because Moore and Larson never really had much of a relationship.
http://scifiwire.com/2009/09/what-could-bryan-singers.php
Concept artist Eric Chu, writing in CinemaSpy, has come up with some cool designs that hearken back to those of the 1978 TV series, with a few tweaks to update them. And look! A Daggett!
Bryan Singer apponte sur le Galactica
http://www.fantasy.fr/articles/view/11277/bryan-singer-apponte-sur-le-galactica
French site says there is info Bryan Singer is currently working with Glen Larson. A new X-Men or Superman has been but on hold, the battlestar will be nothing like RDM or David Eicks and there is little chance Ronald D. Moore participates in the film. Singer and Larson are talking about pushing the franchise in a new direction, its unlikley Moore and Larson will talk because Moore and Larson never really had much of a relationship.
Hmph. An update that still makes it look like a bad puppet. If the new movie has daggits, I think they should be more convincing robo-dogs - we've come to the point where varieties of robo-dog actually exist, after all.
But I get that it's a fan streamlining and polishing the classic Galactica designs (I like his take on the Cylons themselves).
Anyway, tenatively looking forward to more. If Singer's aired ideas about further X-Men or Supermen movies have been put on hold for another flashy space epic, I couldn't be happier, and hope it's pretty good.
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That SciFi Wire article is misleading. It gives the impression that Chu is working on this new version of BSG. That's not true. Chu worked on the 2003 miniseries, and these are conceptual designs he's done on his own, showing the sort of approach he would take if he were doing something closer to the original. It's entirely speculative. It's essentially just fan art.
Missed this, but since the thread's come back to life...
The demands of an atrificially elaborated serial reduced McNulty into a joke in the last season! The Wire had some genuine realism, because it used a serial format to expand the setting, instead of merely torturing its characters. They used the bigger landscape of a serial to depict an actual society. Well, at least, to depict Baltimore more realistically. Almost all TV and movies are "character driven," with fantasy figures. They caper above the mundane realities of our world, providing vicarious escape from the social machinery that rules daily life.
And, by the way, The Wire had plain ordinary lapses from realism. Omar Little came straight from the comic books. (Maybe not so straight, on second thought.) The school year had some major lapses, not the least of which no one had any idea why Prez wasn't a cop any more.
If BSG had been like The Wire, its second season would have gone into the lower ranks, its third into a civilian ship, and the last into a Cylon ship. Instead of shrinking the focus down into a handful of antiheroes like BSG, The Wire kept adding characters. And instead of having earthshaking destinies fulfilled like BSG, The Wire even contorted its plot to prevent anything from fundamentally changing. Which point makes me think that should have been the conclusion of BSG had it lived up to its mythology. The comparison is of opposites, because The Wire really was well written, while BSG (and the old one too) were most decidedly not.
The demands of an atrificially elaborated serial reduced McNulty into a joke in the last season! The Wire had some genuine realism, because it used a serial format to expand the setting, instead of merely torturing its characters. They used the bigger landscape of a serial to depict an actual society. Well, at least, to depict Baltimore more realistically. Almost all TV and movies are "character driven," with fantasy figures. They caper above the mundane realities of our world, providing vicarious escape from the social machinery that rules daily life.
And, by the way, The Wire had plain ordinary lapses from realism. Omar Little came straight from the comic books. (Maybe not so straight, on second thought.) The school year had some major lapses, not the least of which no one had any idea why Prez wasn't a cop any more.
If BSG had been like The Wire, its second season would have gone into the lower ranks, its third into a civilian ship, and the last into a Cylon ship. Instead of shrinking the focus down into a handful of antiheroes like BSG, The Wire kept adding characters. And instead of having earthshaking destinies fulfilled like BSG, The Wire even contorted its plot to prevent anything from fundamentally changing. Which point makes me think that should have been the conclusion of BSG had it lived up to its mythology. The comparison is of opposites, because The Wire really was well written, while BSG (and the old one too) were most decidedly not.
I'm not even sure what you are saying here. On the one hand you praise The Wire as "well written" and then say that it "contorted its plot" and "reduced McNulty into a joke" (statements with obvious negative connotations). You also say that The Wire had "genuine realism" but go on about the "lapses" of Omar and Prez.
And I have no idea how these discussions are supposed to pertain to nuBSG. The fact is, even with the bizarre portrayal of McNulty in The Wire's final season (his "plan" so to speak), The Wire is presents a fundamentally balanced view of its characters. Even Omar, who spends most of the series as a "larger-than-life" character, ultimately gets a very realistic and almost anti-climactic conclusion to his storyline. And if you accept the finale of Season 1, The Wire never contorted itself to "prevent anything from fundamentally changing" -- that was the very premise of the show!
nuBSG, on the other hand, focused primarily on the darker elements of human nature (while, incidentally, oldBSG focused primarily on the noble elements of human nature). Personally, I prefer the balanced approach from The Wire ... and hope that a new BSG incarnation finds the same kind of balance -- incorporating the nobility from the oldBSG and the darker elements of nuBSG to create a truly "realistic" portrayal of humanity.