Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm

[kirk55555]

Sometimes trying to copy the style of the comic in the DVDs backfires, though. I LOVE the two Superman/Batman dvd movies, but Superman/Batman: Public Enemies was probably too faithful to the comic. Anyone who wasn't into super cartoony art probably had a stroke watching that one I was ok with it, but it is a bit shocking at first viewing. On the other hand, The Dark Knight Returns took the original art style as inspiration but did it 1000 times better. So, it can go either way, and I generally have no problem with the art styles of the various movies (not counting Gothan Knight, every short in that was basically a different type of bad).

Still, seeing as the subject matter in this story is fairly dark, I don't see them going very cartoony with the art style. It will probably end up looking like the graphic novel, or at least something similar.

 

[HarryCanyon1982]

Who wants Peter Chung as director? the guy who did the 80s toon C.O.P.S, Aeon Flux the MTV series/shorts, original Ninja Turtles show and more.

 

[Christopher]

It's already been announced that The Killing Joke is being directed by Sam Liu (Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, JL: Crisis on Two Earths, All-Star Superman, Batman: Year One, JL: Gods and Monsters).

 

[dansigal]

I would imagine they'd have to change some things around or this'll be the most misanthropic animated film of all time.

Do you mean misogynistic, because of the controversial treatment of Barbara Gordon? I'm uneasy about that, because the DC Universe movies have tended to lean heavily on male gaze and female objectification in recent years. I don't trust them to handle it sensitively. (Although their adaptation of Batman: Year One did handle the other Barbara Gordon, Jim's first wife, much better than Frank Miller did.)

The Killing Joke is incredibly misogynistic. It's a great Joke origin story, but everything else about it is vile and does not belong on the screen. Barbara Gordon is not the subject of the comic, she's entirely an object and her sexual assault is used primarily to affect her father, who is the subject. She has no agency whatsoever. It's gross and a pretty horrible thing to do to a female superhero in a genre when female superheroes generally aren't treated great anyway.

Yes, it eventually lead to her becoming Oracle, but let's no rewrite history and argue that that was part of the plan of the Killing Joke or that it was necessary for Barbara Gordon to be sexually assaulted in such an objective fashion in order for the Oracle to come about.

 

[kirk55555]

It's already been announced that The Killing Joke is being directed by Sam Liu (Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, JL: Crisis on Two Earths, All-Star Superman, Batman: Year One, JL: Gods and Monsters).

Well, all of those Direct to DVD movies were good, so I think they choose the director very well.

 

[Corran Horn]

Gee, I wonder if Alan Moore will support this project.

 

[the G-man]

The Killing Joke is incredibly misogynistic. It's a great Joke origin story, but everything else about it is vile and does not belong on the screen. Barbara Gordon is not the subject of the comic, she's entirely an object and her sexual assault is used primarily to affect her father, who is the subject...

I would respectfully disagree. One of the powerful things about TKJ back when it was first published was the randomness of what happened to Barbara. She got shot and assaulted, not because she was Batgirl, but because she happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sometimes, in real life, terrible things happen to people that have nothing to do with their jobs and don't allow them a chance at heroics (or even dignity). That makes it even more tragic.

I would also point out that, back in the mid-80s, Batgirl was just not that popular a character. Sure, she had fans, but to a large segment of the comics reading public at the time she was a throwback to the "camp" era (having been created for the TV show) and had never really gelled as a character (if you don't believe me, check out some old issues of "Batman Family" from the 70s).

And, again, I have to suggest that Moore's story is often judged less on its own merits and on all the drek it inspired that really was "fridging."

 

[the G-man]

Gee, I wonder if Alan Moore will support this project.

I can see the credits now: Original story by Brian Bolland and..that other guy.

 

[dansigal]

The Killing Joke is incredibly misogynistic. It's a great Joke origin story, but everything else about it is vile and does not belong on the screen. Barbara Gordon is not the subject of the comic, she's entirely an object and her sexual assault is used primarily to affect her father, who is the subject...

I would respectfully disagree. One of the powerful things about TKJ back when it was first published was the randomness of what happened to Barbara. She got shot and assaulted, not because she was Batgirl, but because she happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sometimes, in real life, terrible things happen to people that have nothing to do with their jobs and don't allow them a chance at heroics (or even dignity). That makes it even more tragic.

But the problem with TKJ (well one of many) is that it's not at all about Barbara. She was used an object in the story. She and her sexual assault aren't really anything more than a prop to support Jim Gordon's character development. She has no agency as a character, she isn't really even a character at all. It's a vile way to treat any female character. It's at it's very core misogynistic.

 

[the G-man]

But the problem with TKJ (well one of many) is that it's not at all about Barbara.

Why should it be? It's a story about the relationship between the Joker and Batman.
Even Gordon's "character development" is there simply to give Bruce an example of why he can't deviate "from the book" or give into madness.

I would also note that Jim himself experienced at least some form of sexual assault, given that he was obviously kidnapped, disrobed, tied up, placed in a bondage collar and tortured while [basically] nude. As such, we have both a male AND a female supporting character subjected to despicable acts.

As such, I just don't see the factual support for your opinion.

 

[dansigal]

But the problem with TKJ (well one of many) is that it's not at all about Barbara.

Why should it be?

And therein lies the entire difference in our opinion. If you can't see why using female characters as nothing more than objects to further the storylines and characterization of male characters is the definition of misogynistic than we're just not gonna agree.

And yes, I know Jim Gordon is also sexually assaulted, but it's apples and oranges man. It's 100% in furtherance of his own storyline and his own character development. He's absolutely one of the subjects of TKJ. Joker targets Gordon to show a good man can be broken. He has agency in the story, Barbara Gordon does not.

 

[JD]

It's already been announced that The Killing Joke is being directed by Sam Liu (Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, JL: Crisis on Two Earths, All-Star Superman, Batman: Year One, JL: Gods and Monsters).

Well, all of those Direct to DVD movies were good, so I think they choose the director very well.

Yeah, those have been some of the better movies, so that's reassuring.

Gee, I wonder if Alan Moore will support this project.

I can see the credits now: Original story by Brian Bolland and..that other guy.

I know when they rereleased Moore's Marvel/Miracleman comics recently he was credited as "The Original Writer", they could always use that credit here if they want to try to acknowledge Moore without using his name.

 

[Destructor]

The Killing Joke is incredibly misogynistic. It's a great Joke origin story, but everything else about it is vile and does not belong on the screen. Barbara Gordon is not the subject of the comic, she's entirely an object and her sexual assault is used primarily to affect her father, who is the subject. She has no agency whatsoever. It's gross and a pretty horrible thing to do to a female superhero in a genre when female superheroes generally aren't treated great anyway.

So... it's a male power fantasy, like 90% of all comics?

 

[dansigal]

The Killing Joke is incredibly misogynistic. It's a great Joke origin story, but everything else about it is vile and does not belong on the screen. Barbara Gordon is not the subject of the comic, she's entirely an object and her sexual assault is used primarily to affect her father, who is the subject. She has no agency whatsoever. It's gross and a pretty horrible thing to do to a female superhero in a genre when female superheroes generally aren't treated great anyway.

So... it's a male power fantasy, like 90% of all comics?

So is your point that all comics have these types of issues so why single out TKJ? I mean you're not going to get an argument from me that the industry has some ways to go on that front. Just take a look at all the Age of Ultron DVD covers that just came out, and which character isn't on a single one of them. TKJ is vile on an entirely different level though

 

[the G-man]

just out of curiosity: Did you consider "a death in the family," where a teenage boy got beaten to death, to be as vile?

How about the origin of Spiderman? After all, Uncle Ben had "no agency" but to further Peter Parker's character development. Was that a vile attack on the elderly?

 

[Christopher]

So... it's a male power fantasy, like 90% of all comics?

Exactly. It's a longstanding problem in the comics industry that it tends to marginalize everyone other than heterosexual white males. That's starting to change in recent years, now that the comics audience is about half-female and increasingly diverse, but publishers are still slow to catch up a lot of the time. Still, The Killing Joke's treatment of Barbara is widely recognized today as an exemplar of the problematical treatment of women in the history of comics (and indeed, of media in general), and is not the sort of thing that would be acceptable today.

I do wonder how the movie will deal with that aspect. Perhaps they could leave it out altogether, though it is pretty important to the story. At the very least, they might leave out the sexual aspect of the assault, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's reducing an admired, strong superheroine to a passive object whose victimization is entirely about a man's story instead of her own.

 

[TRON JA307020]

So... it's a male power fantasy, like 90% of all comics?

Exactly. It's a longstanding problem in the comics industry that it tends to marginalize everyone other than heterosexual white males. That's starting to change in recent years, now that the comics audience is about half-female and increasingly diverse, but publishers are still slow to catch up a lot of the time. Still, The Killing Joke's treatment of Barbara is widely recognized today as an exemplar of the problematical treatment of women in the history of comics (and indeed, of media in general), and is not the sort of thing that would be acceptable today.

I do wonder how the movie will deal with that aspect. Perhaps they could leave it out altogether, though it is pretty important to the story. At the very least, they might leave out the sexual aspect of the assault, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's reducing an admired, strong superheroine to a passive object whose victimization is entirely about a man's story instead of her own.

Its probably best to leave it as is.

 

[Christopher]

Its probably best to leave it as is.

I don't see any way that would constitute "best." When it comes to considering a work of fiction from the past, one has to be aware of its context and put up with certain things, like the blatant racist stereotypes in some Tintin or Mickey Mouse comics or '40s Looney Tunes. But when it comes to making a present-day adaptation, leaving such things unaltered is generally not done. The point of an adaptation is that you get to change things, and that means you don't have to be a slave to bad ideas from the past.

At this point, it could go either way. On the one hand, the animated Batman: Year One adaptation handled the character of Barbara Kean Gordon (Jim's first wife) better than Frank Miller did, giving her more agency and a larger role in the story. On the other hand, the recent DCU movies have been very sophomoric in their male gaze and objectification of female characters, and Batman and Son handled the issue of sexual consent in a totally crass and clueless way (asserting that Talia used drugs to coerce Batman into sex, and having him be perfectly okay with being a rape victim). So if they did include the sexual element of the Joker's assault on Barbara, I fear they'd handle it pruriently. Given their track record, we'd probably be better off if they ditched the sexual component of it altogether.

 

[publiusr]

I might make the assault a simple robbery that just happened to be where Bruce lost his parents...saves time on screen and avoids all the other controversy

 

[JD]

I thought of a change they could make that might help. Maybe instead of the Joker just shooting her as soon as she opens the door, they could have her see the gun, start with her seeing the gun and going for it, they fight, and then it goes off, and she gets shot and is paralyzed. Make it something more heroic, have get shot trying to protect her father.