Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm

[Turtletrekker]

Mark Hamill has his fingers crossed.

http://comicbook.com/2015/07/19/mark-hamill-has-his-fingers-crossed-about-voicing-joker-in-the-k/

 

[JD]

How was it supposed to be batman killing the Joker when the story was actually in continuity at the time, and Joker was alive and well after the story? I'm also pretty sure the story was written specifically to be in continuity, not an elseworlds story that got put into main canon at the time, so obviously the intent wasn't that Joker was dead. I mean, maybe Alan Moore had it in his head that the scene was meant to represent that (although evidence seems to go against that), but from DC's perspective nothing in The Killing Joke was ever meant to imply that Batman killed Joker.

As for the movie adaptation, Barbara getting shot they'll easily allow, in Flashpoint they showed characters getting shot a lot worse, and they also had a decapitation. They might change a bit of the naked Commissioner Gordon stuff, but a lot of the story will probably easily conform to how much they currently allow the animated movies to show.

It's not the action of Barbara getting shot that is the issue, at least for me, it's the fridging of her character that is the issue.
Other than the Barbara issue I loved the comic, so I really look forward to seeing how they handle it.

 

[kirk55555]

Well she didn't die, so I don't know if its exactly "fridging", although its still doing something horrible to herto motivate a guy, so maybe it counts. Still, it gave us Oracle, and Barbara Gordon was 1000x better as Oracle than she ever was as batgirl (and I thought she was a decent Batgirl), so I don't have a problem with what happened (I say that while holding the opinion that Joker only shot her, and didn't go to the extreme which some people theorize he did). It could have been handled a bit better, and with less of a "fridging" aspect, but I don't think it was a bad idea to have her get shot. It lead to great character development and good stories.

 

[the G-man]

Like a lot on Alan Moore's work, I think TKJ is unfairly judged by the lesser talents who insisted one ripping it off thereafter.

Yes. The Joker did some horrible things to Babs. But horrible things sometimes happen to people who don't deserve them. The fact that a writer depicted those horrible things in no way means he or she supports such acts. it's called writing.

Moore was looking to depict the type of heinous crime that might otherwise motivate a law-abiding person to take the law into his or her own hands. he was wanted to show how some people might ignore their emotions and insist on the rule of law. note that Gordon said to Batman "do it by the book." That statement would've been meaningless if Gordon had not been confronted with something so heinous as to tempt someone to throw out the book.

Whether Batman went by the book or not is the question that leads people to continue to discuss the story to this day.

lesser writers did not understand that. They simply saw "violence equals cool." They ran with that flawed concept. That led to fridging.

A lot of inferior talents have produced crappy work because they were inspired by the killing joke. but that is a result of their own in inadequacies, not their source material. Blaming the killing joke for what happened thereafter is akin to blaming "rubber soul" for every shitty rock album that came our post 1965

 

[JD]

Well she didn't die, so I don't know if its exactly "fridging", although its still doing something horrible to herto motivate a guy, so maybe it counts. Still, it gave us Oracle, and Barbara Gordon was 1000x better as Oracle than she ever was as batgirl (and I thought she was a decent Batgirl), so I don't have a problem with what happened (I say that while holding the opinion that Joker only shot her, and didn't go to the extreme which some people theorize he did). It could have been handled a bit better, and with less of a "fridging" aspect, but I don't think it was a bad idea to have her get shot. It lead to great character development and good stories.

Oh yeah, turning her into Orcacle was a great idea, but that doesn't change the fact that I still think the way the shooting was handled in the story was kind of shitty for Barbara.
I understand what part it played, and why they did it, I just think there could have been a better way to handle it.

 

[kirk55555]

Yeah, I get what you mean. Maybe if Joker had just shot her while she was fighting him as Batgirl, and not to mess with her Dad? But, on the other hand, him doing it when she wasn't expecting it, during her civilian time, was part of the whole thing from a character perspective. Maybe if Joker had busted in to capture Commissioner Gordon and shot her just because she happened to open the door (so without taking pictures or the other creepy stuff)? That would probably be the best way to keep a lot of the character stuff while taking out the more obvious "fridging" elements. I mean, it would still piss off Batman so it might count as extra motivation for him, but it would change Barbara being shot to a tragic consequence of Joker's actions, not something done specifically to mess with Commissioner Gordon's head.

Then again, its the Joker. While the "woman in refrigerator" trope is stupid in general, sometimes it makes sense for a villain to attack loved ones. While it may be an uncomfortable scene, the shooting and its motivation fits with the kind of character Joker is. That is probably why I don't have a huge problem with how Moore did it, although the shooting being more like the second scenario I mentioned above would have been fine with me as well.

 

[JD]

Yeah, reading what you wrote, it is more of what happened afterwards that is what makes it so bad. I also think if we had gotten at least some stuff from her perspective, not the rapey, nude picture stuff, but at least something showing how it effected her in this story, instead of stories years later, might have have helped too.
Another thing that bugged me, is the that I don't remember there even being a single acknowledgement that she even was Batgirl in the story.

 

[kirk55555]

I don't think they specifically mentioned she was Batgirl because they probably expected that the majority of people who read it would know, plus it was more about her as James Gordon's daughter, not as Batgirl. But, batman does go to her hospital room and she calls him bruce, so they do have a bit of stuff between them at least, its not just him seeing her in bed and then going out to fight Joker.

Also, I think she didn't get much post shooting resolution in the story because it was a relatively short TPB/graphic novel. It wasn't really her story, if you get what I mean. Maybe the story would have worked better as a story arc in the main Batman book, where they could immediately continue the story and give her some character stuff sooner. I haven't actually read much of the Batman comics that came out at the same time, so I don't know if any of them went into her stuff around the time The Killing Joker came out.

I know she had a decently sized role in the first volume of Suicide Squad (which was an awesome book, BTW) for a bit, which is actually when she first became Oracle. Birds of Prey later gave her a lot of character development and even had her interact with Joker face to face and kind of work out her demon's she'd been carrying around since she got shot. So, she got some great stuff about how TKJ effected her, and probably done better than it would have been at the time. She may have even gotten some post-TKJ stuff right after the event, but like I said I'm not super familiar with the state of the Batman comics at the time.

 

[Timby]

And no, Batman does not choke the Joker to death. That theory has been disproven. And it's a profound misinterpretation of the whole point of the ending.

You have no idea how annoying it is when your posts become condescending just because someone has an interpretation that differs from yours.

Look at the first link. It's in the actual script. It has nothing to do with my interpretation -- I have no dog in this fight. I'm simply passing along the established facts. The facts are not about me. They are documented and on record; I simply happen to be aware of them and I am passing them along for your edification. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with me. I'm just the messenger in this case.

Reading is subjective.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I will say, as much as I like Batman, I wouldn't mind seeing other characters get some attention.

The top selling source material are usually either Justice League related or Batman related. Given the trend I suspect Forever Evil was totally written to be adapted into an animated movie.

Oh yeah, turning her into Orcacle was a great idea, but that doesn't change the fact that I still think the way the shooting was handled in the story was kind of shitty for Barbara.

It was supposedly Ostrander's reaction and distaste to TKJ that he supposedly introduced her as Oracle.

Pity it was undone.

 

[JD]

As much as I might not like how Barbara became Oracle it was still frustrating to lose that version of the character. There really aren't a lot of disabled people like her in this kind of media, so it was a shame to lose one.

 

[kirk55555]

Yeah, especially since the replacement Batgirl's were pretty great anyway (especially Cassandra Cain, who is just one of my favorite DC heroes in general), so we really didn't need to see barbara return to being Batgirl. Its just one of the many, many bad things to come from DC's reboot.

 

[Christopher]

As much as I might not like how Barbara became Oracle it was still frustrating to lose that version of the character. There really aren't a lot of disabled people like her in this kind of media, so it was a shame to lose one.

That's absolutely true -- though unfortunately, it's a bit hard to justify in a universe with advanced bionics, alien medicine, Lazarus Pits, mystic healers, and the like all over the place.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Mark Hamill is in the house! Yes!

 

[JD]

Awesome!

 

[Turtletrekker]

And now Kevin Conroy is expressing interest.

*crosses fingers*

 

[kirk55555]

This is shaping up to be amazing. I like TKJ, and I LOVE Hamil's Joker. If they get Conroy as Batman, it will basically be the adaptation people have been wanting for years. This is easily the most excited I've been for a DC Animated movie in a long time, and I'm generally excited for all of them.

 

[RoJoHen]

I hope they go with a different animation style than the most recent Batman movies. There's just something about them that turns me off.

 

[kirk55555]

I'd hope for something kind of like the graphic novel. So, maybe a bit more "realistic" (if that's the right term) than some of the other movies.

 

[JD]

Yeah, they've tried to mimic the style of the comic for a lot of their adaptations, hopefully they'll do that here.

As negative as I was before, I actually am really looking forward to this. Other than my issues discussed above, I really did enjoy the comic, and I'm hoping the movie might improve on some of my issues.