The real reason Penguin was thrown into the sewer is that he stole his dad's bike.
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Batman Returns
- Thread starter Dream
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Batman Returns is my favorite of the Burton/Schumacher-era films, followed by Batman Forever (which is very much underrated, IMO) and the first Batman (which has some consistency issues with regards to how well it 'flows' with regards to Batman Returns), and the film's version of the Penguin is my all-time favorite incarnation of the character.
As an aside: Batman Returns has a bit more surreal feeling to it than Nolan's two Bat-flicks, but it is nonetheless very similar in terms of its stylistic aesthetic, and I've long maintained that the film's incarnation of the Penguin could be adapted to fit into the 'Nolan-verse' with very little difficulty (although minus some of the more over-the-top aspects of the character). Heck, its ideas about politics and some of its presentation of Catwoman's character could be adapted to the Nolanverse as well, especially after the events of The Dark Knight.
As an aside: Batman Returns has a bit more surreal feeling to it than Nolan's two Bat-flicks, but it is nonetheless very similar in terms of its stylistic aesthetic, and I've long maintained that the film's incarnation of the Penguin could be adapted to fit into the 'Nolan-verse' with very little difficulty (although minus some of the more over-the-top aspects of the character). Heck, its ideas about politics and some of its presentation of Catwoman's character could be adapted to the Nolanverse as well, especially after the events of The Dark Knight.
MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
Another thing, obligatory mention whenever this film is discussed, Marlon Wayans was cast as Robin but his part was cut before filming due to rewrites and the fact Burton hates Robin.
Burton and Nolan are smart directors.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
I like the movie as a movie. It's really funk and unique and Burton-esque.
As a Batman fan I'm more 'meh' on it. It doesn't seem to capture the spirit of Batman and Gotham as well as the 89 movie. And it drove us to the other end of the spectrum towards Schumacher.
As a Batman fan I'm more 'meh' on it. It doesn't seem to capture the spirit of Batman and Gotham as well as the 89 movie. And it drove us to the other end of the spectrum towards Schumacher.
I still prefer the first Batman, but I do really like Returns too. More than anything, there's just a ton of cool, witty dialogue in it.
I think my main problem with Returns is that there's just too much going on. The storytelling isn't nearly as sharp and focused as in the first movie, and the Catwoman, Penguin, and Shrek stories seem to keep tripping over each other.
And as much as DeVito's Penguin has grown on me over the years, he just CAN'T compete with Pfeiffer's Catwoman. There's a real spark and magic to her scenes, and you can really feel the movie lose some of that energy everytime it drifts back to the Penguin story (not to mention the fact they made the Penguin perhaps a little TOO disgusting and unpleasant).
But one thing I do love is just how dark and twisted this Batman is (I especially love those evil little grins Keaton would give). I know it drives the fanboys nuts, but this to me is the ideal version of the character. Psychologically it just makes a lot more sense, and feels to me like what a real Batman would probably be like-- because if you're going to dress up like a bat, you're going to be a bit nuts. That was Burton's belief, and I completely agree with him.
I think my main problem with Returns is that there's just too much going on. The storytelling isn't nearly as sharp and focused as in the first movie, and the Catwoman, Penguin, and Shrek stories seem to keep tripping over each other.
And as much as DeVito's Penguin has grown on me over the years, he just CAN'T compete with Pfeiffer's Catwoman. There's a real spark and magic to her scenes, and you can really feel the movie lose some of that energy everytime it drifts back to the Penguin story (not to mention the fact they made the Penguin perhaps a little TOO disgusting and unpleasant).
But one thing I do love is just how dark and twisted this Batman is (I especially love those evil little grins Keaton would give). I know it drives the fanboys nuts, but this to me is the ideal version of the character. Psychologically it just makes a lot more sense, and feels to me like what a real Batman would probably be like-- because if you're going to dress up like a bat, you're going to be a bit nuts. That was Burton's belief, and I completely agree with him.
Seriously? I never knew that they made one - never even thought there was a design for the character.
Any chance you could upload a photo to this thread? I'd be curious to see what the Robin costume for an African-American Robin in a Burton movie looks like.
As regards the movie, I really liked it when it came out but my love for it has diminished. As has been said, it's a Burton movie first and a Batman movie a distant second. Problem is, it's not a very good Burton movie and it's clearly not one for which he had the passion he brought to, eg, Edward Scissorhands or Sleepy Hollow.
Pfeiffer is brilliant, ditto DeVito, Walken as bonkers as always. Keaton does his best with miscasting, too little screen time and an under-written role. Apparently Burton wanted to call the movie either 'Gotham Menagerie' or go with simple 'Batman' again. The former would have been more appropriate, as 'Batman' would have been verging on false advertising - the character is virtually a supporting one at times.
The sets and cityscapes are better than Schumacher's gay disco ones, but aren't as grand and imposing as Anton Furst's ones from the predecessor. The fight scenes with the circus gang now look little better than the 60s series and the ending with the penguins is plain silly. But the Batmobile and Batmissile are impressive as is the Batski-boat.
Somewhere pitched between the tone of this and Batman Forever would have been about right. But for my money, we had to wait another 13 years until they got Batman right.
The Robin action figure was pretty much the comic version at the time. It had the Tim Drake costume, was white, and wasn't modeled on any actor.
EDIT: Here we go.
^ Ahh, a bit of a letdown all right. Interesting though that he has features and hair which could be caucasian or African-American (well, mixed race, anyway). Kinda hedging their bets, weren't they?!
MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
Maybe. Wikipedia says Wayans actually went to costume fittings, so they may planned on using the Tim Drake look, more or less.
The damned goofy thing was that for the BATMAN RETURNS Penguin action figure, they reused the Super Powers figure from the 1980's, which was comic book based and not like the movie at all.
But they did make Penguin Commandos! And Catwoman, not arriving until later assortments.
I haven't seen Batman Returns in a very long time. I remember not liking the film too much, particularly the Penguin. I didn't like the way he was portrayed and I never found him sympathetic or possessing any redeeming qualities. Michelle Pfeiffer was perfect as Selena/Catwoman, though. I do remember enjoying her, and Selena's relationship with Bruce. I would have liked the film more if the Shrek/Penguin story had been removed altogether.
Perhaps I should watch it again. My opinion of things may have changed over the years.
I will say this much - the Burton films are light-years ahead of the mess made by Joel Schumacher in Batman Forever and Batman & Robin. Talk about awful, terrible, unforgivable movies.
Perhaps I should watch it again. My opinion of things may have changed over the years.
I will say this much - the Burton films are light-years ahead of the mess made by Joel Schumacher in Batman Forever and Batman & Robin. Talk about awful, terrible, unforgivable movies.
Yeah I remember liking Batman Forever when it came out (probably because Jim Carey was so big at the time), but I tried watching it again recently and it's just embarassingly bad.
The only good part is that action scene between Batman and Two-Face's goons early on, which has the coolest fight choreography of any of the six Batman movies, IMO.
The only good part is that action scene between Batman and Two-Face's goons early on, which has the coolest fight choreography of any of the six Batman movies, IMO.
I knew that something had gone horribly wrong the first time Batman was on the screen. He's not supposed to by "chatty".
A brilliant movie through & through. A beautiful gothic fairy tale that only Tim Burton could tell.
It's also one of the funniest comic book movies ever written, bolstered by a great performance by Christopher Walken.
"It's not like you can just kill me."
"Actually, it's a lot like that."
"It could be worse. My nose could be gushing blood."
Every film watcher must individually decide exactly how much Tim Burton is too much. For me, Edward Scissorhands is too much. Planet of the Apes is way too little. Batman Returns is just right.
There is one scene here that makes my skin crawl. It's the part where Selina Kyle trashes her apartment. I get this weird shiver whenever I see that part.
Connect the dots!
La la la la!
It's also one of the funniest comic book movies ever written, bolstered by a great performance by Christopher Walken.
"It's not like you can just kill me."
"Actually, it's a lot like that."
"It could be worse. My nose could be gushing blood."
Every film watcher must individually decide exactly how much Tim Burton is too much. For me, Edward Scissorhands is too much. Planet of the Apes is way too little. Batman Returns is just right.
There is one scene here that makes my skin crawl. It's the part where Selina Kyle trashes her apartment. I get this weird shiver whenever I see that part.
Connect the dots!
La la la la!
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Tim Burton is just too much for me, his style doesn't appeal at all.
I also hated his version of The Penquin. The Penguin is supposed to be a short, fat, abbrasive, dapper, mob kingpin. Not a mutant that lives in the sewer.
I also hated his version of The Penquin. The Penguin is supposed to be a short, fat, abbrasive, dapper, mob kingpin. Not a mutant that lives in the sewer.
I think the humor in the first two movies were great. The next two movies were just dumb especially Mr Freeze's lame ice puns.
I love Selina's evolution from office nerd to kickass villainess that took on Batman in the movie. Michelle Pfeiffer was perfectly cast for the role and Catwoman's costume was just as striking as Batman's costume. Pfeiffer made Catwoman's lines seem badass instead of cheesy.
I'm glad Joel Schumacher was never able to use the character. Catwoman probably would have been like Poison Ivy with her ridiculous hairsyle and dumb costumes if Schumacher had gotten his hands on her.
I like this better than the first one as well.
Penguin's Mom was Simone from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, too.
Penguin's Mom was Simone from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, too.
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