Batman and.... Robin?!

[Christopher]

And it's worth noting that the page above -- "Have you forgotten what happened to Jason?" -- was written a couple of years before Jason was killed off in "A Death in the Family." I wonder if part of the reason the fans voted for his death was because TDKR had predisposed them to expect it.

As for the Carrie Kelley Robin working "quite well" in that grittier context... keep in mind that the point of it was to critique and deconstruct the idea of Batman having a teen sidekick by overtly painting it as an act of child endangerment by an obsessed and possibly unbalanced Batman. Though on the other hand, part of the reason it was portrayed that way is because TDKR was set in a much more dark and dangerous future than the present day of the comics at the time -- something we forget because subsequent creators felt they had to make the present-day Batman comics as dark and grim and grotesquely violent as TDKR was, rather missing the point that it was supposed to represent an extreme, a future Gotham that had degenerated badly in the absence of Batman.

 

[Thestral]

Of course, Frank Miller doesn't do himself any favors in that department when he's become steadily more unhinged and apparently convinced his TDKR Batman is, in fact, the "correct" one.

 

[Set Harth]

a future Gotham that had degenerated badly in the absence of Batman.

Sounds familiar...

 

[Showdown]

Batman is the Dark Knight

Robin is his squire. Squires are teenagers (knights in training) that accompanies the knight into battle to prove themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squire

 

[stj]

the darker, grittier movie versions, like the Burton and Nolan films, have just ignored Robin because the character doesn't work in such a setting. And I think it's absurd even to have Robin in any version that's remotely going for realism.

I mean, the idea is that Batman is a brooding, psychologically-scarred loner who carries out a very personal war on crime as a private mission.


And... he brings along a teenage boy as a sidekick, constantly exposing him to danger? Um, no.

No version of Batman has tried for realism to date, regardless of legends about Nolan's take. Dick Grayson's origin is "his parents are killed by criminals," which need I point out is the same as Bruce Wayne's. A genuinely psychologically-scarred individual could well see this as a version of himself, rendering all thoughts about individual irrelevant. Child endangerment really is dark and gritty. But the Nolan version isn't really dark and gritty, it's just narcissistic angst and hysteria about "crime," which stands in for fears about terrorism and race in Nolan's movies.

It is informative that Robin as a woman has in fact been tried. I'm still surprised that it hasn't been more popular. Were people resistant to sexual overtones?

 

[Admiral2]

You know what I love? That lately I've been given many opportunities to shamelessly promote my fanfiction!

For this thread, I offer a passage from one of my Buffy fanfictions:

Spoiler: The Great Robin Theory

Cordy looks exasperated. "Don't tell me your Xander never bent your ear about his great Robin theory!"

"Maybe when we were kids, but I probably didn't pay attention."

"Really? I always listened. Geekiness was one of the things I found cute about my Xander. Anyway, he used to say that at first glance it doesn't make sense for Robin to exist. After all, Batman's supposed to be this deep, dark, broody guy, striking fear in the hearts of evil-doers…you know, kind of like Angel!"

I smile. "Right. With you so far."

"Okay, so here you have this Dark Knight waging a one-man war on crime, but in order to do it effectively he has to work at night and in secret so that the bad guys don't see him coming. That's why he's in the gray-and-black union suit, right? So if all that's true, why start working with some loud, uncontrollable kid in primary colors?"

"I have no idea."

"Well, in real life, the publishers of the Batman comic wanted a kid put in to give their younger readers someone they could identify with, but you have to come up with a reason for it in the context of the story, right? Xander figured it out!"

"The Great Robin Theory?"

She nods. "Robin was a distraction, camouflage. The magician's assistant that you keep ogling while the magician does his trick. Robin's job was to give the villain something bright and fluttery and active to focus on while Batman snuck out of the shadows to cold-cock him!"

I take a minute to let that sink in, then say, "So, you're the bright and fluttery thing that Tara's going to use to distract Willow?"

"Mm-hmm. I'm Robin."

I glance at Tara. "I suppose that makes Tara Batman." Cordy confirms that with a nod. "So, what, that makes my doppelganger The Joker?"

Cordy thinks about it. "More like Two-Face. Cool and focused one moment, ugly emotional the next. I'm here to bring out her emotional side."

"Uh-huh…okay, so what does that make Catherine?"

She grins and gets real close to whisper, "She's Ace from Batman Beyond, but she hates it when we call her that."

 

[Greg Cox]

It is informative that Robin as a woman has in fact been tried. I'm still surprised that it hasn't been more popular. Were people resistant to sexual overtones?

I don't think they were ever intended to be permanent. Carrie Kelly appeared in what amounted to an imaginary story set in a possible future, while Stephanie was basically a placeholder until the "real" Robin came back.

There wasn't much in the way of sexual undertones either time, due to the fact that Robin wasn't a grown woman, just a teenage girl, and much younger than Batman, who came off as a gruff older mentor or drill sergeant.

Male Robins persist due to tradition more than anything else.

 

[sonak]

the darker, grittier movie versions, like the Burton and Nolan films, have just ignored Robin because the character doesn't work in such a setting. And I think it's absurd even to have Robin in any version that's remotely going for realism.

I mean, the idea is that Batman is a brooding, psychologically-scarred loner who carries out a very personal war on crime as a private mission.


And... he brings along a teenage boy as a sidekick, constantly exposing him to danger? Um, no.

No version of Batman has tried for realism to date, regardless of legends about Nolan's take. Dick Grayson's origin is "his parents are killed by criminals," which need I point out is the same as Bruce Wayne's. A genuinely psychologically-scarred individual could well see this as a version of himself, rendering all thoughts about individual irrelevant. Child endangerment really is dark and gritty. But the Nolan version isn't really dark and gritty, it's just narcissistic angst and hysteria about "crime," which stands in for fears about terrorism and race in Nolan's movies.

It is informative that Robin as a woman has in fact been tried. I'm still surprised that it hasn't been more popular. Were people resistant to sexual overtones?

Well, I agree that no version of Batman can be truly realistic, considering what the character is. But that doesn't mean there's not a scale. Call Nolan's version "comic book realism" if you like, but just compare it to the Schumacher version, and which one looks more realistic?

 

[Trekker4747]

The Adam West TV series is "more realistic" compared to Schumacher's bullshit movies.

 

[Christopher]

On the subject of the realism of the '66 Batman... today I visited the physics department at the University of Wisconsin along with my two physicist uncles, and we got a tour of the room where they keep all the equipment and goodies for classroom demonstrations and the like. And there was a genuine, real-life million-volt Tesla coil with a big sign on it saying MILLION VOLT TESLA COIL in big block letters. It would've fit perfectly in Adam West's Batcave (although then it probably would've said MILLION VOLT BAT TESLA COIL).

 

[Disruptor]

Thought balloons.

Thought Baloo.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Thought Baboon

 

[Davros]

I thought Robin was there so Batman would have somebody to rescue.

 

[Agent Richard07]

I wondered how the Nolanverse would handle Robin.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Ugh.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wondered how the Nolanverse would handle Robin.

Iron Man should have a helmet and no cape.

 

[sonak]

Robin would have just seemed silly in the Nolan take. Much like Mr. Freeze, Clayface, etc.

 

[Trekker4747]

I wondered how the Nolanverse would handle Robin.

Yeah... That's what we needed an emo Robin. I'm guessing it would have been Jason Todd.

 

[Mistral]

I wondered how the Nolanverse would handle Robin.

Yeah... That's what we needed an emo Robin. I'm guessing it would have been Jason Todd.

As long as he dies by the end of the movie.

 

[stj]

I thought Robin was there so Batman would have somebody to rescue.

Also true, to a degree.

As to the notion that the Nolan take is too realistic for a Robin, consider Alfred. It's not impossible that a
SAS-type military badass would take up butlering. It would be a lot more believable in England of course. But what defies all sense of reality is that said badass soldier-cum-forelock tugger would be left to raise a billionaire boy heir. To paraphrase Jane Austen, a child with a billion dollars needs guardians. When Alfred doesn't trigger the silly alarm, the damn thing's broken.

Nolan could have put in a Robin. Nolan's take seems to aim at some sort of psychological verisimilitude about what such a vigilante might be like, but it really misses this entirely. For one thing, it has no clue about they physical reality (why the action scenes are so bad,) nor does it have a clue about the social/legal realities. A Robin is perfectly compatible with the interpretation of Batman as possibly mentally unbalanced. But a Robin would show a genuine mental disturbance as opposed to the histrionics we see in the Nolan movies. The angst may not be light-hearted camp, but it's not truly dark and disturbing.

There is the problem of Robin's crimefighting abilities not being useful, and thus he looks silly, but this is a problem for Batman too. I don't quite get how anyone thinks Nolan successfully solved this problem.