Batman and.... Robin?!

[Set Harth]

Robin was just a gimmick, intended to give kids reading superhero comics a character they could more easily identify with than the adult hero. This was ridiculously unobservant of the intended audience, as Jules Pfeiffer pointed out - kids identified with and wanted to be Batman; nobody wanted to be Robin.

Sort of the problem a lot of movies and stuff have (see: Anakin in TPM) reading and watching these things we didn't want to be kids in this universe hanging out with the heroes we wanted to BE the hero.

Yeah, Lucas doesn't seem to get that.

 

[Christopher]

I think the idea that Robin is named for Robin Hood is a later retcon, or at least a secondary consideration for the creators of the character back in 1940. It wasn't really a "theme" name of any kind, any more than the name Bucky for Captain America's sidekick or Speedy for Green Arrow's. These were just generic names or nicknames that were popular for boys at the time. The idea was to make these "everyboy" characters that the young target audience could identify with.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Ironically, the DC Nation Short aired today on Cartoon Network between the Green Lantern cartoon and Young Justice asked and answered the question.

Kiddie Claymation Superman: Why is he called Robin? 'Cause you don't really see bats and robins together, do ya?

Spoiler: answer

S'pose they both fly, and they both eat insects! Ha, ha, yeah!

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, that's the whole reason I clicked on this thread. I saw the question raised in the Aardman superhero short, and then I saw this thread title and wondered if it might be the same question, and by coincidence, it was.

 

[Racer_X]

I think the idea that Robin is named for Robin Hood is a later retcon, or at least a secondary consideration for the creators of the character back in 1940. It wasn't really a "theme" name of any kind, any more than the name Bucky for Captain America's sidekick or Speedy for Green Arrow's. These were just generic names or nicknames that were popular for boys at the time. The idea was to make these "everyboy" characters that the young target audience could identify with.

No, it's not a retcon; the reference to Robin Hood is made in the very first panel that shows him in costume. From Detective Comics 38:

"And thus Dick Grayson, by the hand of fate, transformed into that astonishing phenomenon, that young Robin Hood of today - Robin The Boy Wonder!"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think the idea that Robin is named for Robin Hood is a later retcon, or at least a secondary consideration for the creators of the character back in 1940. It wasn't really a "theme" name of any kind, any more than the name Bucky for Captain America's sidekick or Speedy for Green Arrow's. These were just generic names or nicknames that were popular for boys at the time. The idea was to make these "everyboy" characters that the young target audience could identify with.

No, it's not a retcon; the reference to Robin Hood is made in the very first panel that shows him in costume. From Detective Comics 38:

"And thus Dick Grayson, by the hand of fate, transformed into that astonishing phenomenon, that young Robin Hood of today - Robin The Boy Wonder!"

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_(comics)#Fictional_character_biography:

About a year after Batman's debut, Batman creators Bob Kane and Bill Finger introduced Robin the Boy Wonder in Detective Comics #38 (1940). The name "Robin the Boy Wonder" and the medieval look of the original costume were inspired by The Adventures of Robin Hood. [Jerry] Robinson noted he "came up with Robin Hood because The Adventures of Robin Hood were boyhood favorites of mine. I had been given a Robin Hood book illustrated by N. C. Wyeth ... and that's what I quickly sketched out when I suggested the name Robin Hood, which they seemed to like, and then showed them the costume. And if you look at it, it's Wyeth's costume, from my memory, because I didn't have the book to look at."[2] (Later re-tellings of Robin's origin have instead often said the name comes from the American robin bird, not Robin Hood,[3] Frank Miller's All Star Batman and Robin being a notable exception; sometimes both sources are credited, as in Len Wein's The Untold Legend of the Batman.)
(...)
1. ^ Daniels, Les (2004). Batman: The Complete History. Chronicle Books. p. 37. ISBN 0811842320.
2. ^ The Comics Journal #271
3. ^ Bridwell, E. Nelson (w), Andru, Ross (p), Esposito, Mike (i). "The Origin of Robin" Batman 213 (July–August 1969), DC Comics

Evidently, the illustrations Robinson is speaking of may be found by fanning out from http://sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/rh/rh01.htm. Just click to enlarge the image in each of the indicated links.

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah... the Robin Hood idea doesn't gel with me as it makes even less sense given the "tone" of Batman (even when he was campy) or a "theme" between the two characters. While setting a theme between a superhero and his side-kick/protégé may not be common it seems to me it would make sense to do so in order for there to be some-kind-of "connection" between the two.

So here we have man who's a symbol of fear for the criminal element and has taken on the guise of a fearsome mammal and his side kick... either an "anti-hero" from English folklore (whose actions have not much in common with what Batman and Robin do) or a bird that symbolizes rebirth and spring and pretty much anything BUT fear and darkness.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah... the Robin Hood idea doesn't gel with me as it makes even less sense given the "tone" of Batman (even when he was campy) or a "theme" between the two characters. While setting a theme between a superhero and his side-kick/protégé may not be common it seems to me it would make sense to do so in order for there to be some-kind-of "connection" between the two.

But apparently "Robin Hood" is exactly what Bob Kane and Bill Finger had in mind when they created the character. That's a matter of historical record.

 

[stj]

It seems to me that one major reason for Robin is have someone for Batman to talk to. Also, Pfeiffer is wrong in one respect. Even if kids consciously prefer to identify with Batman, on another level they're going to identify with Dick Grayson. It's like with Superman. When the heroics aren't underway, kids don't really identify with Clark Kent, but Jimmy Olsen. It's the adult fans who dig Bruce Wayne or Clark's romance with LL.

The child endangerment thing is too dark and gritty, especially for fake dark and gritty approaches. Which I guess is why Robin seems to be some sort of uncomfortable afterthought. This seems to be especially true since it seems like most of the second raters can't seem to get a handle on Bruce. Neglecting Bruce leaves out the paternal aspect of the Batman/Robin relationship. If Bruce isn't Dick Grayson's guardian, that pretty much just leaves a crazy man sending a kid into peril of his life, or worse, some sort of homoerotic relationship.

What I think is truly bizarre is that Robin hasn't been re-written as a woman.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I wondered how the Nolanverse would handle Robin. I don't know anything about the new film, but I thought it would be in keeping with the general tone of things to have "Robin" be a private digital companion/hologram, kind of like Selma from Time Trax.

R.O.B.I.N.: Remote Operated Bat Information Network.

 

[Marc]

R.O.B.I.N.: Remote Operated Bat Information Network.

okay Adam West might say that line but not Christian Bale.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

'Backup', then?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah... the Robin Hood idea doesn't gel with me as it makes even less sense given the "tone" of Batman (even when he was campy) or a "theme" between the two characters. While setting a theme between a superhero and his side-kick/protégé may not be common it seems to me it would make sense to do so in order for there to be some-kind-of "connection" between the two.

So here we have man who's a symbol of fear for the criminal element and has taken on the guise of a fearsome mammal and his side kick... either an "anti-hero" from English folklore (whose actions have not much in common with what Batman and Robin do) or a bird that symbolizes rebirth and spring and pretty much anything BUT fear and darkness.

Robin Hood is a source/prototype/ for the type of hero Batman is. Batman, especially in the last couple of decades is as much, if not more of an anti-hero as Robin Hood.

 

[Thestral]

So here we have man who's a symbol of fear for the criminal element and has taken on the guise of a fearsome mammal and his side kick... either an "anti-hero" from English folklore (whose actions have not much in common with what Batman and Robin do)...

If you'll recall Robin Hood is generally presented as standing up against a corrupted society - robbing the rich to give to the poor because nobody's looking out for them, and sometimes presented as wealthy himself before running up against the corrupted society. His immediate nemesis, after all, is the Sheriff of Nottingham. Now tell me, aside from seeing his parents gunned down by (usually) a petty crook, what's one of the usual defining traits of Batman, especially when he's "just starting out?" Why... a corrupt society, either Gotham's gone to the bad entirely or is in the thrall of criminals. Batman (and Robin) are looking out for "the little people" because nobody else is standing up to the crooks. Sounds like something in common with Robin Hood. Plus of course there's the "inspired by Zorro, who was inspired by Robin Hood" thing.

But apparently "Robin Hood" is exactly what Bob Kane and Bill Finger had in mind when they created the character. That's a matter of historical record.

You know what's kind of interesting is that over the years Green Arrow - virtually indistinguishable from Batman in his early years - has become a more and more explicit Robin Hood figure. Coincidence perhaps, but interesting.

Neglecting Bruce leaves out the paternal aspect of the Batman/Robin relationship. If Bruce isn't Dick Grayson's guardian, that pretty much just leaves a crazy man sending a kid into peril of his life, or worse, some sort of homoerotic relationship.

That's one of the minor things I like about the Young Justice cartoon - Batman is shown to have a very positive relationship with Robin, a genuine paternal caring.

What I think is truly bizarre is that Robin hasn't been re-written as a woman.

Well, there was The Dark Knight Returns, and in the "real" DCverse it was actually done for a time (much as DC would like us all to forget when they brutally tortured a teenage female Robin "to death" in loving detail on-panel) before she got demoted and then ultimately promoted to Batgirl.

 

[Greg Cox]

Plus of course there's the "inspired by Zorro, who was inspired by Robin Hood" thing.

Or, to be more precise, Zorro was inspired by The Scarlet Pimpernel, with perhaps a healthy dose of Robin Hood thrown in.

Although, in a way, the Pimpernel was sort of the anti-Robin Hood in that he protected the aristocrats from the bloodthirsty rabble!

 

[Disruptor]

Rename him "Batboy" and claim it was inspired by baseball.

Rename him "Raven and speak of this Robin nevermore!

Batman without Robin...so who does he talk to tell us what is going on? Alfred on the phone? Thought bubbles? (Damn, of course! Thought bubbles!)

I'd like Batman to have a new sidekick called Cowbird, who kicked Robin out of the cave and tricked Bruce Wayne and Alfred into feeding him.

What does "Bucky" have to doing with America or Captaining?

Robin is iconic. He's the dude who saved Superman from that thing Mongul gave him in "For the Man Who Has Lots of Shit in a Big Arctic Fortress" (I may have the title wrong). The Justice League cartoon version left Robin out...booo! Alan Moore gave Robin the props.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Thought balloons.

 

[sonak]

It seems to me that one major reason for Robin is have someone for Batman to talk to. Also, Pfeiffer is wrong in one respect. Even if kids consciously prefer to identify with Batman, on another level they're going to identify with Dick Grayson. It's like with Superman. When the heroics aren't underway, kids don't really identify with Clark Kent, but Jimmy Olsen. It's the adult fans who dig Bruce Wayne or Clark's romance with LL.

The child endangerment thing is too dark and gritty, especially for fake dark and gritty approaches. Which I guess is why Robin seems to be some sort of uncomfortable afterthought. This seems to be especially true since it seems like most of the second raters can't seem to get a handle on Bruce. Neglecting Bruce leaves out the paternal aspect of the Batman/Robin relationship. If Bruce isn't Dick Grayson's guardian, that pretty much just leaves a crazy man sending a kid into peril of his life, or worse, some sort of homoerotic relationship.

What I think is truly bizarre is that Robin hasn't been re-written as a woman.

the darker, grittier movie versions, like the Burton and Nolan films, have just ignored Robin because the character doesn't work in such a setting. And I think it's absurd even to have Robin in any version that's remotely going for realism.

I mean, the idea is that Batman is a brooding, psychologically-scarred loner who carries out a very personal war on crime as a private mission.


And... he brings along a teenage boy as a sidekick, constantly exposing him to danger? Um, no.

It might work as a concept if Robin was more like "Oracle," and hacking into computers back in the Batcave, but really, Alfred can fill that role anyway.

So the character is either redundant or just ludicrous as a concept.

He's okay in campy, Adam West-type versions of Batman, and that's about it.

 

[Shawnster]

It seems to me that one major reason for Robin is have someone for Batman to talk to. Also, Pfeiffer is wrong in one respect. Even if kids consciously prefer to identify with Batman, on another level they're going to identify with Dick Grayson. It's like with Superman. When the heroics aren't underway, kids don't really identify with Clark Kent, but Jimmy Olsen. It's the adult fans who dig Bruce Wayne or Clark's romance with LL.

The child endangerment thing is too dark and gritty, especially for fake dark and gritty approaches. Which I guess is why Robin seems to be some sort of uncomfortable afterthought. This seems to be especially true since it seems like most of the second raters can't seem to get a handle on Bruce. Neglecting Bruce leaves out the paternal aspect of the Batman/Robin relationship. If Bruce isn't Dick Grayson's guardian, that pretty much just leaves a crazy man sending a kid into peril of his life, or worse, some sort of homoerotic relationship.

What I think is truly bizarre is that Robin hasn't been re-written as a woman.

the darker, grittier movie versions, like the Burton and Nolan films, have just ignored Robin because the character doesn't work in such a setting. And I think it's absurd even to have Robin in any version that's remotely going for realism.

I mean, the idea is that Batman is a brooding, psychologically-scarred loner who carries out a very personal war on crime as a private mission.


And... he brings along a teenage boy as a sidekick, constantly exposing him to danger? Um, no.

It might work as a concept if Robin was more like "Oracle," and hacking into computers back in the Batcave, but really, Alfred can fill that role anyway.

So the character is either redundant or just ludicrous as a concept.

He's okay in campy, Adam West-type versions of Batman, and that's about it.

Robin, rewritten as a female, worked quite well in Frank Miller's darker, gritter "Dark Night Returns" graphic novel which inspired the Burton and Nolan film franchises.

http://dkreturns.blogspot.com/2012_01_01_archive.html

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Alright then, perhaps the Nolanverse Robin could simply be a street informant who assists Batman in solving crimes.