Balance of Terror..

[RobertScorpio]

I downloaded the remastered version of this episode for my XBOX sometime back. We watched it last night and I am still curious as to this Romulan/Earth conflict that Spock talks about.

I had assumed that the events in the Cage/Menagerie, when Pike and his crew arrived at talos-4, happened something like 18 years before the current day time of Kirk and company. Or something like that...

Anyway, when Pike and crew go down to the planet and meet with the 'survivor's, one of the crewmen of the Enterprise tells survivors that the time barrier has been broken. I assume he meant warp speed? I've always assumed thats what he meant. Ini any event, Mina's ship that she crashed on didn't have warp speed. That was the point of why the men were all so old, I guess. So I came away with the impression that warp speed had only been in use just prior to the events on The Cage/Menagerie.

Yet, if that is true, how were Romulans/Earth fighting a war if it happened before Warp speed came around? And that doesn't even take into account Captain Archer and his ship's ability to travel at Warp Speeds before the Romulan war....

What is going on??? Or is this one of those 'whoops' events.

Rob
scorpio

 

[RobertScorpio]

It was later established that Cochrane had "discovered the space warp" MUCH earlier, at a period that would not only have been prior to the events of THE CAGE, but also prior to the time of the Romulan war.

This "discovery of the space warp" has been established as the creating of warp drive.

As we see on the series ENTERPRISE, there were progressive improvements with warp drive, so that "throw-away" line in THE CAGE can be taken as meaning a significant increase in warp speed had been achieved since the time Vina's ship crashed on Talos IV.

Okay...I could live with that. And I know it isn't fare to reflect back at a 40 year old throw-away-line and make it fit into what has come after that point. It was just the pilot.

And, on the subject, would you be in favor of 'cleaning' these kinds of issues in future releasese of TOS???

Rob

 

[gastrof]

It was later established that Cochrane had "discovered the space warp" MUCH earlier, apparently at a period that would not only have been prior to the events of THE CAGE, but also prior to the time of the Romulan war.

This "discovery of the space warp" has been established as the creating of warp drive.

As we see on the series ENTERPRISE, there were progressive improvements with warp drive, so that "throw-away" line in THE CAGE can be taken as meaning a significant increase in warp speed had been achieved since the time Vina's ship crashed on Talos IV.

There have been other examples that can be taken as a "Whoops!" moment, or explained by creative writers...or even fans.

In BALANCE OF TERROR Scotty says the Romulans have nothing but "impulse power". We know this to be impossible, since to even travel between star systems (let alone form an empire) the Romulans would have HAD to have warp drive.

How do we explain this?

Maybe Scotty meant their power source wasn't matter/anti-matter, but something more primitive. We know that on TNG the Romulans were revealed to have a VERY different power source than Starfleet ships.

If they were using the same method during Kirk's era, then it's possible sensor readings might not have even recognized what they were using as a power source, and might have picked up on some auxiliary reactor or something.

I personally suspect that even Cochrane's test flight used something other than a matter/anti-matter power source, likely something atomic. Meaning you can achieve warp with a "weak" power source, but for high warp you need something else.

And, on the subject, would you be in favor of 'cleaning' these kinds of issues in future releasese of TOS???

Rob

Nah.

Let it alone. Such things can be explained away the way we already have for years. "Trekker's fix-it syndrome" I call it.

 

[RobertScorpio]

It was later established that Cochrane had "discovered the space warp" MUCH earlier, apparently at a period that would not only have been prior to the events of THE CAGE, but also prior to the time of the Romulan war.

This "discovery of the space warp" has been established as the creating of warp drive.

As we see on the series ENTERPRISE, there were progressive improvements with warp drive, so that "throw-away" line in THE CAGE can be taken as meaning a significant increase in warp speed had been achieved since the time Vina's ship crashed on Talos IV.

There have been other examples that can be taken as a "Whoops!" moment, or explained by creative writers...or even fans.

In BALANCE OF TERROR Scotty says the Romulans have nothing but "impulse power". We know this to be impossible, since to even travel between star systems (let alone form an empire) the Romulans would have HAD to have warp drive.

How do we explain this?

Maybe Scotty meant their power source wasn't matter/anti-matter, but something more primitive. We know that on TNG the Romulans were revealed to have a VERY different power source than Starfleet ships.

If they were using the same method during Kirk's era, then it's possible sensor readings might not have even recognized what they were using as a power source, and might have picked up on some auxiliary reactor or something.

I personally suspect that even Cochrane's test flight used something other than a matter/anti-matter power source, likely something atomic. Meaning you can achieve warp with a "weak" power source, but for high warp you need something else.

And, on the subject, would you be in favor of 'cleaning' these kinds of issues in future releasese of TOS???

Rob

Nah.

Let it alone. Such things can be explained away the way we already have for years. "Trekker's fix-it syndrome" I call it.

Which is, admittedly, much funner. It also requires us to think through time variables which, as I have read, are good excersizes to protect your self from Alzhimers.

Rob

 

[Vance]

The "Time Barrier" being broken may not actually mean Warp in and of itself. It could have been a long-held cap on warp speeds (say, Warp 5 or 6) due to the limitations of available technology. Making the Constitution generation of ships the first with dilithium-focused drives (and maybe even M/AM drives) would solve that issue.

Something else to keep in mind, "Impulse Power" does NOT mean 'subluminal speed', it means they use a fusion-based nuclear reactor for power, which both drains fuel and has a limitation of warp speed. The BOP would, effectively, be a 'generation out' for drive technology, but not be hopelessly without Warp speed.

Anyway, the timeline goes as follows:

2151 - Time of "Broken Bow"
2154 - Time of Romulan War (ENT Source)
2161 - Time of Federation Founding Day
2185 - (Approx) Time of Romulan War (TOS Source)
2235 - SS Columbia crashes on Talos IV
2245 - USS Constitution (NCC-1700) and USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) launch
2253 - Time of "The Cage"
2265 - Time of "Balance of Terror"
2266 - Time of "Menagerie"

So, all you need is to have dilithium-focused drives invented between 2235 and 2253, and the dialog makes sense. Fortunately, the given launch of the Enterprise (as second in her class) of 2245 works out very nicely. You could even extrapolate the Bonaventure as the test-bed for the 'new M/AM drive' (to explain away the TAS dialog) occuring as early as 2230 as an NX ship, with which the Columbia crew wouldn't know anything about, allowing two generations to inhabit the lost vessel.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The "Time Barrier" being broken may not actually mean Warp in and of itself. It could have been a long-held cap on warp speeds (say, Warp 5 or 6) due to the limitations of available technology. Making the Constitution generation of ships the first with dilithium-focused drives (and maybe even M/AM drives) would solve that issue.

Something else to keep in mind, "Impulse Power" does NOT mean 'subluminal speed', it means they use a fusion-based nuclear reactor for power, which both drains fuel and has a limitation of warp speed. The BOP would, effectively, be a 'generation out' for drive technology, but not be hopelessly without Warp speed.

Anyway, the timeline goes as follows:

2151 - Time of "Broken Bow"
2154 - Time of Romulan War (ENT Source)
2161 - Time of Federation Founding Day
2185 - (Approx) Time of Romulan War (TOS Source)
2235 - SS Columbia crashes on Talos IV
2245 - USS Constitution (NCC-1700) and USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) launch
2253 - Time of "The Cage"
2265 - Time of "Balance of Terror"
2266 - Time of "Menagerie"

So, all you need is to have dilithium-focused drives invented between 2235 and 2253, and the dialog makes sense. Fortunately, the given launch of the Enterprise (as second in her class) of 2245 works out very nicely. You could even extrapolate the Bonaventure as the test-bed for the 'new M/AM drive' (to explain away the TAS dialog) occuring as early as 2230 as an NX ship, with which the Columbia crew wouldn't know anything about, allowing two generations to inhabit the lost vessel.

Except that I think they mentioned in an episode of Enterprise the the Warp reactor used dilithium. Though I could be wrong.

 

[Vance]

I checked all the 'usual' sites to be sure of that, but none mention ENT using dilithium (or it's alternate name, radan) anywhere. If you can find it, though, please let me know.

 

[M'Sharak]

I checked all the 'usual' sites to be sure of that, but none mention ENT using dilithium (or it's alternate name, radan) anywhere. If you can find it, though, please let me know.

Here's one, taken from dialogue in "Cold Front". (Visiting dignitaries are being given a tour of Engineering. Silik is among them, disguised.)

[Engineering]
TUCKER: The gravimetric field displacement manifold, commonly known as the warp reactor. Just think of it as a great big engine but instead of using electricity or chemical fuel it runs on antimatter. See this swirling light? When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
SONSORRA: The nacelles.
TUCKER: That's right.
SONSORRA: Which contain warp coils that create the subspace displacement field.
TUCKER: I see you already know a thing or two about starship engines.
SONSORRA: I'm a warp field theorist.
TUCKER: Oh. Well, I guess that covers the basics. Any questions?
ALIEN: How do you regulate positron flow in your dilithium matrix?
TUCKER: Good one. I'll bring up the schematic of the reactor assembly and you can see for yourself. If you'll just come with me. We use a series of magnetic constrictors to align the positron stream.
(one of the point-chinned aliens breaks away from the group)

http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/11.htm

And another, from "The Catwalk" (the NX-01 has been boarded)

PALANTI: We've searched every deck. There's no sign of the fugitives.
CAPTAIN: What about the crew?
PALANTI: It appears they have deserted the ship.
CAPTAIN: These humans. They've travelled over a hundred light years from their homeworld.
ARCHER [OC]: Captain's Starlog, February 9, 2152. The Vulcans have allowed the Mazarites to leave. Ambassador V'Lar says there's a
CAPTAIN: Archer and his crew must've taken refuge in a nearby system. They may intend to return. What's the status of the warp engines?
PALANTI: I'm having difficulty with the dilithium matrix.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/38.htm

 

[Vance]

I didn't watch much of Enterprise, but they weren't kidding when they said it was a revamp of TNG, were they? They described a TNG engine, to be sure, even skipping past the tech of TOS there. Yet another example of which...

Well, I guess it's one of those issues that depends heavily on if you accept ENT as part of the 'original time stream' or if you follow the studio directive that it was a 'new post FC timeline' or something.

 

[M'Sharak]

^ I don't worry about it all that much, to be honest.

Those were a couple of pretty good episodes, though, if you're ever so inclined.

 

[Vance]

^ I don't worry about it all that much, to be honest.

Those were a couple of pretty good episodes, though, if you're ever so inclined.

Oh, THIS issue only bothers me in what I'm doing for Jaynz, really. The statements made there have to be pretty definitive, and ENT really throws a spanner in the works for 'Treknology' progression. (In most ways, ENT is higher tech than TOS, and is even SLIGHTLY higher tech than TNG.. makes it hard to mesh, honestly.)

My problems with Enterprise is.. well.. I tried to watch it on a few occaisions, three times I got a decon scene, one time I got a 'creepy sex stalker' scene, and one last time I got a 'Vulcan female in Pon Farr' scene. I gave up after that.

 

[M'Sharak]

^ I don't worry about it all that much, to be honest.

Those were a couple of pretty good episodes, though, if you're ever so inclined.

Oh, THIS issue only bothers me in what I'm doing for Jaynz, really. The statements made there have to be pretty definitive, and ENT really throws a spanner in the works for 'Treknology' progression. (In most ways, ENT is higher tech than TOS, and is even SLIGHTLY higher tech than TNG.. makes it hard to mesh, honestly.)

I can see how that might be the case.

My problems with Enterprise is.. well.. I tried to watch it on a few occaisions, three times I got a decon scene, one time I got a 'creepy sex stalker' scene, and one last time I got a 'Vulcan female in Pon Farr' scene. I gave up after that.

It's been a while since I've watched any ENT, but I'm pretty sure that none of those issues crop up in either episode.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The way I look at it is they've used dilithium since the almost the beginning of Warp travel. Any references to a different power source or fuel is just the show working out the kinks, just like the UESPA/Space Command/Starfleet thing. Same with the tech behind the engines. Its all more or less the same with slight improvements over time.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Anyway, the timeline goes as follows:

No, it doesn't. There were no dates as such in Star Trek - deliberately. BermaTrek doesn't get to change what was a complete package in 1969.

 

[Vance]

Anyway, the timeline goes as follows:

No, it doesn't. There were no dates as such in Star Trek - deliberately. BermaTrek doesn't get to change what was a complete package in 1969.

They didn't give a starting date, so yes, I used 2266 from the Okudachron. All the other dates sourced from TOS are explicitly mentioned RELATIVE to the 'current' time of the episode.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Anyway, the timeline goes as follows:

No, it doesn't. There were no dates as such in Star Trek - deliberately. BermaTrek doesn't get to change what was a complete package in 1969.

They weren't totaly opposed to dates, just inconsistant. "SPace Seed" gives us the dates 1992, 1993 and 1996. Kirk claims
Khan has been "asleep" for 200 years. They also give 2018 as the year vessels using suspended animation ceased being used. And thats just one episode.

 

[drychlick]

i take it as a TVSHOW begaining noting more or less good day

 

[drychlick]

i take it as a TVSHOW begaining noting more or less good day

i take it as a TV SHOW JUST GOTING START NOING MORE OR LESS take care

 

[Neopeius]

Anyway, the timeline goes as follows:

No, it doesn't. There were no dates as such in Star Trek - deliberately. BermaTrek doesn't get to change what was a complete package in 1969.

Indeed.

The 1980 Spaceflight Chronology has a speed barrier of Warp 4 imposed by the inefficiency of the engines. Just prior to the development of the Constitution class ships, the properties of Dilithium are discovered and harnessed enabling much higher speeds.

It's as good an explanation as anything. Certainly air travel was not impossible before the sound barrier was broken so FTL travel could have been possible before the time barrier was broken.

Modern Trek gives me a headache. You can always tell a newer fan when they start bringing up "Warp Cores".

 

[Timo]

It can't really be argued that the Columbia was a pre-FTL vessel, since her mission involved launching with an adult woman named Vina, then crashing some time later, and then staying crashed for eighteen years. If the "some time later" were just the allowed few years or less, then the Columbia had to be significantly FTL or else Talos would be right next door to a well-settled Earth colony, or even Earth itself. And if the trip was at sublight and took decades instead, the timeline would be screwed and Vina might have to be a multicentenarian.

So the drive system before the breaking of the time barrier was probably faster than light, and other Trek would seem to establish it as a sort of warp drive - just not as fast as the one on Joe Tyler's ship. Perhaps a breakthrough did happen within the eighteen years preceding "The Cage". Or perhaps a mere gradual improvement was made, but Tyler was a overexcited by his chance to impress the sexy platinum blonde.

BermaTrek doesn't get to change what was a complete package in 1969.

That doesn't sound all that reasonable. TOS was never a "complete package", just a random collection of loosely connected stories. It only became a "package" when an entire fictional universe was spun around it.

However, as said, while the TOS episodes played fast and loose with each other, many of them suggested that there was a long history to warp drive - and "The Cage" doesn't really contradict that. So even without pretending that TOS was a "package", we could have a good reason to wrap it into one in just the manner that "BermaTrek" later interprets as the one correct manner - that warp preceded "The Cake" by centuries.

Timo Saloniemi