Bad world building of Enterprise

[Shamrock Holmes]

Wasn't there a whole revamp of warp-scales between TOS and TNG, roughly that TNG speeds are '1' warp factor ahead of the old scale? Eg TOS Warp 8 is their 7.

That's somewhat oversimplifying and only close to accurate between about Warp 5 and 9:

(Average speeds only, enviromental factors will effect actual flight time).
Warp 1 = Light Speed
Warp 2 = 8c (Cochrane), 10c (TNG+) --> actually similar
Warp 3 = 27c (Cochrane), 39c (TNG+) --> actually similar
Warp 4 = 64c (Cochrane), 102c (TNG+) --> 1.6x relative to both
Warp 5 = 125c (Cochrane), 214c (TNG+) --> actually similar
Warp 6 = 216c (Cochrane), 392c (TNG+) --> 80% correlation to "drop of one factor".
Warp 7 = 343c (Cochrane), 656c (TNG+) --> 88% correlation to "drop of one factor".
Warp 8 = 512c (Cochrane), 1024c (TNG+) --> 78% correlation to "drop of one factor".
Warp 9 = 729c (Cochrane), 1516c (TNG+) --> 71% correlation to "drop of one factor".
Warp 10 = 1000c (Cochrane), ~215,431c (TNG+)* --> 66% correlation to "drop of one factor"*

* Based on Warp 9.9999 (subspace radio speed) due to the TNG+ system having a crazy curve after Warp 9 to avoid the "Warp 10 barrier".

 

[at Quark's]

To be fair, the ship in TNG wasn't any faster than the ship on TOS. Aside from better holograms and robots, there was barely any progress at all.

Besides the recalibration of the warp scale (recalibration probably also introduced to make such comparisons harder), in direct comparisons the writers of TNG usually took some effort to point out how much more 'advanced' the Galaxy class was. In Yesterday's Enterprise for example remarks are made on how heat dissipation systems have advanced over the last 22 years (of course that's between the ent-C, and the alt-ent-D, not 'our' ent-D, but still). Geordi proposes to outfit the ent-C the ship with modern armament so they would no longer be outgunned by the four warbirds, etc. In Relics it is shown how nearly all of Scotty's technological know-how is obsolete because of all the advances over the last 80 years (it is a plot point) until the climax in which he has superior knowledge on some systems that haven't changed that much.

Perhaps it might be compared to the difference between a 1960 passenger jet and one manufactured today? On a very superficial level they probably look a bit alike and still share the same very general design outlines but under the hood a lot of technological advancement has taken place, in areas both slightly visible (cockpit layout) and less well visible (materials used). (I'm not sure how much trouble a 1960's pilot would have in flying a modern one.)

But yeah, of course outside such direct comparisons it's just all makebelief, between a superadvanced ship and a ship that is "even more superadvanced".

 

[FederationHistorian]

That's my issue, they are the same technologies, they didn't do anything different despite the 100 gap from ENT to TOS. They missed the opportunity to create a new setting with different advantages and disadvantages.

They had pulse cannons and spatial torpedoes though.

The real issue is that the phase cannons and photonic torpedoes were never shown to have any faults to them. The phase cannon initially had a weak yield; it should have shown itself to be continually faulty and unreliable, resulting in the pulse cannon being used more. The spatial torpedoes should have returned for S4, due to there being a limited amount of photonic torpedoes that were made for the Xindi mission, as they were still experimental.

I imagine their kill only weapon being a matter of engineering, not choice. As in they cannot engineer a practical kill-stun combo weapon, and even if they could it still wouldn't be idiot proof enough to be safe. A stun only weapon, sure, but I also imagine that working like a better Taser, meaning it doesn't cause a comfy coma, it causes momentary physical collapse, and is even iffier against aliens than the phaser.

When phaser stun fails it just doesn't work, but an incompatible Taser could kill, not work, cripple, or cause any number of issues.

Except that they did engineer a kill-stun combo pre-Federation. It just couldn’t vaporize anyone, it lacked the firepower of a MACO weapon, and was rather bulky. Maybe that's what was meant by the ENT era not having any phasers; phase pistols aren't as powerful as those in the 24th century, and is limited in its abilities.

They may have also wanted to have address the stun setting's lack of power or general ineffectiveness, and split it away from the kill only weapon for the time being.

Maybe the early Federation wanted to address both problems at once.

Well cops even now carry both a Taser and a hand gun, so it is possible for a security officer to carry both on an away team ( Which should have had, like The Cage, a guy or girl carrying a backpack of stuff, like a tent, water etc. ) In Babylon 5, had PPG's plasma pulses.. and in now way were they "Stun"..

I think its safe to say that away mission policy changed between the founding of the Federation and "The Cage."

But I agree, they had to many of the conveniences of the past series in the ship.. "Protein Re-sequencer" is a food replicator.. had sub space, that was real time 100 light years away ( hell in TOS had Uhura say it would take days or weeks to get a response.. not immediate) Maybe the use of Com Drones.. or just voice transmissions..

A primitive food replicator.

Com drones should have been a thing. But the NX-01 was dropping subspace buoys to communicate with Starfleet anyways, so w/e.

Considering that the Vulcans were able to communicate with others face to face, voice communication only was not seen as realistic or acceptable to Starfleet.

For the Transporters, had a bit in the book series after that Archer and Reed were suffering some mal effects of multiple uses, and were banned for abit to just emergency's..

I can easily see 2155-56 being the period that the NX-01 starts to fall apart (transporter malfunctions, delta ray leaks in engineering, etc.), necessitating a refit.

And the transporters having negative health effects on Archer and Reed would justify Hoshi's fear of them.

For weapons, could easly had some lasers, and some type of scale able yield nuclear missiles

I think the lasers came after, along with the Daedalus class ships.

Wasn't there a whole revamp of warp-scales between TOS and TNG, roughly that TNG speeds are '1' warp factor ahead of the old scale? Eg TOS Warp 8 is their 7.

I wonder if there was an adjustment to the warp scale between ENT and TOS. Resulting in the NX-class, ECS cargo ships, and many other ships from rival powers to be considered sublight ships 100 years later?

 

[Tribble Threat]

Close. Some sources say that TNG's warp scale is slightly higher. In TOS, it's said that the ship's speed is the cube of the warp number, while in TNG, the ship's speed is the warp number to the 3.3 power. This would mean the new warp 10 is nearly twice the old warp 10. But that's not that big a difference, considering Enterprise ships went 1/8 that speed.
And there are sources that say that in the 24th century, the warp scale drops any coherent equation around Warp 9.9, and then Warp 10 is infinity. That's not part of my head canon, because I don't like it. It doesn't make much difference anyway, because ships don't often fly faster than 9.9.

 

[Dar70]

Star Trek sadly as a whole is one big flipping mess. Tons of contradictions, and they cant even be consistent with stuff like the warp effect. There are some great Star Trek stories but Star Wars does a better job of consistent look...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Star Trek sadly as a whole is one big flipping mess. Tons of contradictions, and they cant even be consistent with stuff like the warp effect. There are some great Star Trek stories but Star Wars does a better job of consistent look...

True regarding the look but there's also a lot less Star Wars than Star Trek. I suspect if there were as many SW series' and creators across the decades there would be similar creative differences.

 

[Tenacity]

Star Trek sadly as a whole is one big flipping mess. Tons of contradictions

hardly a big mess. most of the contradictions are minor and inconsequential. the smallest amount of thought can come up with reasonable explanations for most of them.

there are some big significant ones, but they're relatively few in number.

 

[TopperHenly]

We get a fully formed and realised Starfleet with a clear purpose and the same ethos and ideals as we see in the 23rd and 24th centuries, despite basically just being created and only having a few ships at their disposal. There's no learning curve. Enterprise is a super ship that forms the Federation all by itself within the space of a few years. The political situation of the Alpha Quadrant at this time isn't really established, despite the fact the tyrannical Klingon and Romulan empires would have been the major powers during this era. We never get a sense what their influence is.

A primitive Starfleet with limited capabilities reacts to the Klingons just like they did in the 24th century. You might imagine discovering the existence of a huge interstellar empire controlled by an aggressive alien species who could easily invade Earth would lead to a massive ship building effort to defend Earth and its interests. Better writing could have shown the Klingon Empire to be a dangerous bullying galactic super power that motivates Starfleet to create alliances (that eventually becomes the Federation) in order to counter this threat. Instead it was over a Romulan drone.

So basically it was a good concept that was badly executed, let down by bad writing, bland miscast characters and dreadful world building.

And one that is only four days away.

I'm not a big fan of Star Trek, a newbie in this forum and have only finished Enterprise so I'm cautious about replying to these types of posts.

You are right in saying that there is no scale of the influence that the Klingons and Romulans have in the universe that the series is set. As mentioned, the Klingons could easily defeat Earth given it's lower level of technology and close proximity. However, they may tolerate minor infractions caused by Star Fleets Enterprise because an all-out war against Earth, which while may be easily won would be more costly in occupying and incorporating into the Klingon Empire. A comparison can be seen with the modern conflicts of Iraq and Afghanistan where trillions of dollars have been spent by America. It may be simply not worth the effort.

In having a war with Earth which could be long and protracted,could preoccupy the Klingon Empire too much that the Romulans could exploit. In essence, it would upset the balance of power in the region.

Of course, this is just an opinion of mine.

 

[Silvercrest]

Klingons don't seem to be much into cost / benefit analysis.

 

[TopperHenly]

Klingons don't seem to be much into cost / benefit analysis.

They seemed to have a good idea of that in the Mauraders episodes where the deuterium miners fought back with the help of the Enterprise crew.

While the Klingons were mostly shown as crude and uncouth in the series, it doesn't mean that those at the top of the Empire were as well or else they wouldn't have one. Most likely those in power of the Empire used 'bread and circuses' populism by appealing to the worst of Klingon nature in order to keep control. They promoted the warrior ethos in their society and encouraged murder and pillage against lesser powers but were wise enough not to bite off more than they could chew.

 

[Tenacity]

True regarding the look but there's also a lot less Star Wars than Star Trek.

depends on how you look at it. less number of hours yes. but in the extended universe every no name back ground extra has a full character name, complete life history, family background, education, planet of origin, etc.

every ship. fighter, shuttle and ground vehicle has a designator, source of manufacture, and design philosophy.

if star trek were star wars, we'd know where the shuttlecraft galileo was built and who worked on it and the full story of every crewman seen once walking down a corridor.

 

[F. King Daniel]

depends on how you look at it. less number of hours yes. but in the extended universe every no name back ground extra has a full character name, complete life history, family background, education, planet of origin, etc.

every ship. fighter, shuttle and ground vehicle has a designator, source of manufacture, and design philosophy.

if star trek were star wars, we'd know where the shuttlecraft galileo was built and who worked on it and the full story of every crewman seen once walking down a corridor.

Pretty sure we do. Almost every ship or shuttle has technical blueprints and backstory. Endless one-off characters (Sonja Gomez and countless more) are fleshed out in novels and comics.

Or does Star Wars go into even more depth?

 

[Noname Given]

depends on how you look at it. less number of hours yes. but in the extended universe every no name back ground extra has a full character name, complete life history, family background, education, planet of origin, etc.

every ship. fighter, shuttle and ground vehicle has a designator, source of manufacture, and design philosophy.

if star trek were star wars, we'd know where the shuttlecraft galileo was built and who worked on it and the full story of every crewman seen once walking down a corridor.

You haven't read a lot of the Star Trek novels I see...

 

[Sci]

I always got the impression that the NX-01 crew were enjoying the benefits of technologies that ought to require large institutions and infrastructure for them to exist, but that infrastructure didn't; it always felt counter-intuitive to me.

If I were doing ENT in 2001, I would made these changes:

• No transporters. All ship-to-ship and ship-to-ground travel has to happen by shuttlepod.
• No energy beam weapons. Calling them "phase cannons" doesn't make them meaningfully different from "phasers." Give the NX-01 a significant disadvantage; show us how different their era is. When the ship is in danger, they deploy rail guns. When officers are in trouble, they shoot firearms.
• No photon torpedoes. If the rail guns aren't enough, they have to resort to nuclear-tipped missiles. This makes combat a riskier proposition, and it is consistent with Spock's reference to the Earth-Romulan War being fought with "primitive atomic weapons."
• No Earth subspace communication systems. The only way NX-01 gets to talk to Earth is either via radio signals that can take weeks or months to transmit, or by asking the Vulcans to borrow their system (thereupon the question of Vulcan spying on their comms can be introduced as a plot point).
• It's called the UES Enterprise, and Archer describes it as "the United Earth Starship Enterprise" when asked to identify himself. The organization they all work for is not called "Starfleet," it's called the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
• UESPA's operational ethos should not resemble Starfleet's from TNG. No Prime Directive, not even any notion that something like the Prime Directive ought to exist.
• We flat-out do not meet the Klingons. Period. No Klingons, no Ferengi, no Borg.
• The major interstellar players in the neighborhood are Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar. Keep the Earth-resents-being-part-of-Vulcan's-neoimperialist-hegemony aspect, but make Andor and Tellar immediately interested in trying to use Earth to undermine Vulcan. Build this three-way conflict from the start so that it doesn't need shoe-horned in once you get to Season Four like in real life.
• A major theme of the show should also be the existence of Human colonies on Mars, Alpha Centauri, and Vega, and how those colonies simultaneously are dependent on the interstellar trade and resource-distribution infrastructure with Earth to survive, but also on how they're developing their own independent identities and want independence. Maybe Mars is already independent but still marginalized by Earth -- the Canada to Earth's United States, and they resent that. Make showing the flag and promoting unity part of the UES Enterprise's mission -- and make it a morally ambiguous part of her mission, and leave the audience wondering how much of trying to keep the colonies in line is a good thing. Make part of the series arc the process of United Earth learning to let go of imperial ambitions and to lead Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar down that same path.
• Keep and expand the Vuclan Reformation arc from ENT S4. Make that an entire season of the show.
• Make the Romulans a background element that gets teased as an upcoming threat for several years before shit finally hits the fan and the Earth-Romulus War begins.

 

[Tenacity]

a guy or girl carrying a backpack of stuff, like a tent, water etc

The boxy backpack in The Cage, I always thought it held mostly medical supplies for the "survivors."

Something I found odd about The Cage was Captain Pike basically wasting time on the surface while the survivors collected their gear, like they were going to take them to the ship. Why not beam up as soon as possible?

 

[Mytran]

The boxy backpack in The Cage, I always thought it held mostly medical supplies for the "survivors."

Something I found odd about The Cage was Captain Pike basically wasting time on the surface while the survivors collected their gear, like they were going to take them to the ship. Why not beam up as soon as possible?

Akin to taking their litter home with them? K.I.T!

 

[Imaus]

I always got the impression that the NX-01 crew were enjoying the benefits of technologies that ought to require large institutions and infrastructure for them to exist, but that infrastructure didn't; it always felt counter-intuitive to me.

If I were doing ENT in 2001, I would made these changes:

• No transporters. All ship-to-ship and ship-to-ground travel has to happen by shuttlepod.
• No energy beam weapons. Calling them "phase cannons" doesn't make them meaningfully different from "phasers." Give the NX-01 a significant disadvantage; show us how different their era is. When the ship is in danger, they deploy rail guns. When officers are in trouble, they shoot firearms.
• No photon torpedoes. If the rail guns aren't enough, they have to resort to nuclear-tipped missiles. This makes combat a riskier proposition, and it is consistent with Spock's reference to the Earth-Romulan War being fought with "primitive atomic weapons."
• No Earth subspace communication systems. The only way NX-01 gets to talk to Earth is either via radio signals that can take weeks or months to transmit, or by asking the Vulcans to borrow their system (thereupon the question of Vulcan spying on their comms can be introduced as a plot point).
• It's called the UES Enterprise, and Archer describes it as "the United Earth Starship Enterprise" when asked to identify himself. The organization they all work for is not called "Starfleet," it's called the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
• UESPA's operational ethos should not resemble Starfleet's from TNG. No Prime Directive, not even any notion that something like the Prime Directive ought to exist.
• We flat-out do not meet the Klingons. Period. No Klingons, no Ferengi, no Borg.
• The major interstellar players in the neighborhood are Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar. Keep the Earth-resents-being-part-of-Vulcan's-neoimperialist-hegemony aspect, but make Andor and Tellar immediately interested in trying to use Earth to undermine Vulcan. Build this three-way conflict from the start so that it doesn't need shoe-horned in once you get to Season Four like in real life.
• A major theme of the show should also be the existence of Human colonies on Mars, Alpha Centauri, and Vega, and how those colonies simultaneously are dependent on the interstellar trade and resource-distribution infrastructure with Earth to survive, but also on how they're developing their own independent identities and want independence. Maybe Mars is already independent but still marginalized by Earth -- the Canada to Earth's United States, and they resent that. Make showing the flag and promoting unity part of the UES Enterprise's mission -- and make it a morally ambiguous part of her mission, and leave the audience wondering how much of trying to keep the colonies in line is a good thing. Make part of the series arc the process of United Earth learning to let go of imperial ambitions and to lead Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar down that same path.
• Keep and expand the Vuclan Reformation arc from ENT S4. Make that an entire season of the show.
• Make the Romulans a background element that gets teased as an upcoming threat for several years before shit finally hits the fan and the Earth-Romulus War begins.

While I agree with most of this,

Why would no Prime Directive equivalent exist? At the very least, there would be a hashed out first contact protocols that vary per race, which maybe no outright contact allowed with non space-faring, non-warp species; this could even be a tint imposed by the Vulcans; but even without the Vulcans there's little good to be had by Terrans coming down willy nilly everywhere. We already have equivalent mores in place with uncontacted tribes after our own records and ongoing ramifications of hundreds of years of forced cultural contact...

What I would suggest is that the Prime Directive isn't, well, 'Prime'. It's just 'First Contact Protocols/Dialogue Protocols'. They're there for a good reason, but they're not dogmatic, and if a Starship could help a civilization or planet out, they would - even if it's just collecting food from one uninhabited part of the planet and dumping it close by at night under stealth ops to avert a famine in the inhabited regions, or making a aerosol vaccine to combat a plague on a Medieval world, because Earth just came out of catastrophe and there's a huge emphasis on biological diversity, a feeling that while some adversity is okay, crippling-level events often don't do much but stall development, and second chances, perhaps?

If a life bearing world can be saved from a asteroid strike by some light Asteroid sheperding, UESPA would do it; as the Asteroid Belt and Kupier Belt and Oort Cloud are already almost a 'garden' and it's trivially easy to alter a orbit of a far flung rock (or even a incoming rock with 22nd level tech). If a species can be saved by vaccines or food, UESPA will try, and maybe if some dogmatic system is in place, maybe some UESPA agents or Intelligence are known to have come in and muck about with wetwork.... (Leading to some dark implications down the road, perhaps?)

This would be, of course, a huge point of controversy with the Vulcans, but they're not like, going to undo what the Terrans did, but it does make them more wary of this 'young hotblooded species putting its nose in where it shouldn't ' compared to the more Fatalist Vulcans of the era?

 

[amp]

While I agree with most of this,

Why would no Prime Directive equivalent exist? At the very least, there would be a hashed out first contact protocols that vary per race, which maybe no outright contact allowed with non space-faring, non-warp species; this could even be a tint imposed by the Vulcans; but even without the Vulcans there's little good to be had by Terrans coming down willy nilly everywhere. We already have equivalent mores in place with uncontacted tribes after our own records and ongoing ramifications of hundreds of years of forced cultural contact...

It would be interesting if the protocols went the other way. As in Enterprise was instructed to render all possible aid to any civilizations who requires it. The reason being that the ship is a humanitarian ambassador and a demonstration of the Terrans desire for peace and goodwill.

Then we could see an episode or two where Archer follows the protocol and it goes awry one way or another. The resulting decimation makes clear the dangers of interference and shows the reason the Prime Directive was put in place.