Bad world building of Enterprise

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Soong-type Android, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    That's somewhat oversimplifying and only close to accurate between about Warp 5 and 9:

    (Average speeds only, enviromental factors will effect actual flight time).
    Warp 1 = Light Speed
    Warp 2 = 8c (Cochrane), 10c (TNG+) --> actually similar
    Warp 3 = 27c (Cochrane), 39c (TNG+) --> actually similar
    Warp 4 = 64c (Cochrane), 102c (TNG+) --> 1.6x relative to both
    Warp 5 = 125c (Cochrane), 214c (TNG+) --> actually similar
    Warp 6 = 216c (Cochrane), 392c (TNG+) --> 80% correlation to "drop of one factor".
    Warp 7 = 343c (Cochrane), 656c (TNG+) --> 88% correlation to "drop of one factor".
    Warp 8 = 512c (Cochrane), 1024c (TNG+) --> 78% correlation to "drop of one factor".
    Warp 9 = 729c (Cochrane), 1516c (TNG+) --> 71% correlation to "drop of one factor".
    Warp 10 = 1000c (Cochrane), ~215,431c (TNG+)* --> 66% correlation to "drop of one factor"*

    * Based on Warp 9.9999 (subspace radio speed) due to the TNG+ system having a crazy curve after Warp 9 to avoid the "Warp 10 barrier".
     
    Annatar likes this.
  2. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    Besides the recalibration of the warp scale (recalibration probably also introduced to make such comparisons harder), in direct comparisons the writers of TNG usually took some effort to point out how much more 'advanced' the Galaxy class was. In Yesterday's Enterprise for example remarks are made on how heat dissipation systems have advanced over the last 22 years (of course that's between the ent-C, and the alt-ent-D, not 'our' ent-D, but still). Geordi proposes to outfit the ent-C the ship with modern armament so they would no longer be outgunned by the four warbirds, etc. In Relics it is shown how nearly all of Scotty's technological know-how is obsolete because of all the advances over the last 80 years (it is a plot point) until the climax in which he has superior knowledge on some systems that haven't changed that much.

    Perhaps it might be compared to the difference between a 1960 passenger jet and one manufactured today? On a very superficial level they probably look a bit alike and still share the same very general design outlines but under the hood a lot of technological advancement has taken place, in areas both slightly visible (cockpit layout) and less well visible (materials used). (I'm not sure how much trouble a 1960's pilot would have in flying a modern one.)

    But yeah, of course outside such direct comparisons it's just all makebelief, between a superadvanced ship and a ship that is "even more superadvanced".
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  3. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2020
    They had pulse cannons and spatial torpedoes though.

    The real issue is that the phase cannons and photonic torpedoes were never shown to have any faults to them. The phase cannon initially had a weak yield; it should have shown itself to be continually faulty and unreliable, resulting in the pulse cannon being used more. The spatial torpedoes should have returned for S4, due to there being a limited amount of photonic torpedoes that were made for the Xindi mission, as they were still experimental.

    Except that they did engineer a kill-stun combo pre-Federation. It just couldn’t vaporize anyone, it lacked the firepower of a MACO weapon, and was rather bulky. Maybe that's what was meant by the ENT era not having any phasers; phase pistols aren't as powerful as those in the 24th century, and is limited in its abilities.

    They may have also wanted to have address the stun setting's lack of power or general ineffectiveness, and split it away from the kill only weapon for the time being.

    Maybe the early Federation wanted to address both problems at once.

    I think its safe to say that away mission policy changed between the founding of the Federation and "The Cage."

    A primitive food replicator.

    Com drones should have been a thing. But the NX-01 was dropping subspace buoys to communicate with Starfleet anyways, so w/e.

    Considering that the Vulcans were able to communicate with others face to face, voice communication only was not seen as realistic or acceptable to Starfleet.

    I can easily see 2155-56 being the period that the NX-01 starts to fall apart (transporter malfunctions, delta ray leaks in engineering, etc.), necessitating a refit.

    And the transporters having negative health effects on Archer and Reed would justify Hoshi's fear of them.

    I think the lasers came after, along with the Daedalus class ships.

    I wonder if there was an adjustment to the warp scale between ENT and TOS. Resulting in the NX-class, ECS cargo ships, and many other ships from rival powers to be considered sublight ships 100 years later?
     
    Lexomatic likes this.
  4. Tribble Threat

    Tribble Threat Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Close. Some sources say that TNG's warp scale is slightly higher. In TOS, it's said that the ship's speed is the cube of the warp number, while in TNG, the ship's speed is the warp number to the 3.3 power. This would mean the new warp 10 is nearly twice the old warp 10. But that's not that big a difference, considering Enterprise ships went 1/8 that speed.
    And there are sources that say that in the 24th century, the warp scale drops any coherent equation around Warp 9.9, and then Warp 10 is infinity. That's not part of my head canon, because I don't like it. It doesn't make much difference anyway, because ships don't often fly faster than 9.9.
     
  5. Dar70

    Dar70 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Location:
    Dar70
    Star Trek sadly as a whole is one big flipping mess. Tons of contradictions, and they cant even be consistent with stuff like the warp effect. There are some great Star Trek stories but Star Wars does a better job of consistent look...
     
  6. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    King Daniel Beyond
    True regarding the look but there's also a lot less Star Wars than Star Trek. I suspect if there were as many SW series' and creators across the decades there would be similar creative differences.
     
    Sci likes this.
  7. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    hardly a big mess. most of the contradictions are minor and inconsequential. the smallest amount of thought can come up with reasonable explanations for most of them.

    there are some big significant ones, but they're relatively few in number.
     
    lawman likes this.
  8. TopperHenly

    TopperHenly Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    I'm not a big fan of Star Trek, a newbie in this forum and have only finished Enterprise so I'm cautious about replying to these types of posts.

    You are right in saying that there is no scale of the influence that the Klingons and Romulans have in the universe that the series is set. As mentioned, the Klingons could easily defeat Earth given it's lower level of technology and close proximity. However, they may tolerate minor infractions caused by Star Fleets Enterprise because an all-out war against Earth, which while may be easily won would be more costly in occupying and incorporating into the Klingon Empire. A comparison can be seen with the modern conflicts of Iraq and Afghanistan where trillions of dollars have been spent by America. It may be simply not worth the effort.

    In having a war with Earth which could be long and protracted,could preoccupy the Klingon Empire too much that the Romulans could exploit. In essence, it would upset the balance of power in the region.

    Of course, this is just an opinion of mine.
     
  9. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Klingons don't seem to be much into cost / benefit analysis.
     
  10. TopperHenly

    TopperHenly Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    They seemed to have a good idea of that in the Mauraders episodes where the deuterium miners fought back with the help of the Enterprise crew.

    While the Klingons were mostly shown as crude and uncouth in the series, it doesn't mean that those at the top of the Empire were as well or else they wouldn't have one. Most likely those in power of the Empire used 'bread and circuses' populism by appealing to the worst of Klingon nature in order to keep control. They promoted the warrior ethos in their society and encouraged murder and pillage against lesser powers but were wise enough not to bite off more than they could chew.
     
    lawman likes this.
  11. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    depends on how you look at it. less number of hours yes. but in the extended universe every no name back ground extra has a full character name, complete life history, family background, education, planet of origin, etc.

    every ship. fighter, shuttle and ground vehicle has a designator, source of manufacture, and design philosophy.

    if star trek were star wars, we'd know where the shuttlecraft galileo was built and who worked on it and the full story of every crewman seen once walking down a corridor.
     
  12. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    King Daniel Beyond
    Pretty sure we do. Almost every ship or shuttle has technical blueprints and backstory. Endless one-off characters (Sonja Gomez and countless more) are fleshed out in novels and comics.

    Or does Star Wars go into even more depth?
     
  13. NoGrave Dug

    NoGrave Dug Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    Noname Given
    You haven't read a lot of the Star Trek novels I see... ;)
     
    Sci likes this.
  14. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Location:
    Montgomery County, State of Maryland
    I always got the impression that the NX-01 crew were enjoying the benefits of technologies that ought to require large institutions and infrastructure for them to exist, but that infrastructure didn't; it always felt counter-intuitive to me.

    If I were doing ENT in 2001, I would made these changes:
    • No transporters. All ship-to-ship and ship-to-ground travel has to happen by shuttlepod.
    • No energy beam weapons. Calling them "phase cannons" doesn't make them meaningfully different from "phasers." Give the NX-01 a significant disadvantage; show us how different their era is. When the ship is in danger, they deploy rail guns. When officers are in trouble, they shoot firearms.
    • No photon torpedoes. If the rail guns aren't enough, they have to resort to nuclear-tipped missiles. This makes combat a riskier proposition, and it is consistent with Spock's reference to the Earth-Romulan War being fought with "primitive atomic weapons."
    • No Earth subspace communication systems. The only way NX-01 gets to talk to Earth is either via radio signals that can take weeks or months to transmit, or by asking the Vulcans to borrow their system (thereupon the question of Vulcan spying on their comms can be introduced as a plot point).
    • It's called the UES Enterprise, and Archer describes it as "the United Earth Starship Enterprise" when asked to identify himself. The organization they all work for is not called "Starfleet," it's called the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
    • UESPA's operational ethos should not resemble Starfleet's from TNG. No Prime Directive, not even any notion that something like the Prime Directive ought to exist.
    • We flat-out do not meet the Klingons. Period. No Klingons, no Ferengi, no Borg.
    • The major interstellar players in the neighborhood are Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar. Keep the Earth-resents-being-part-of-Vulcan's-neoimperialist-hegemony aspect, but make Andor and Tellar immediately interested in trying to use Earth to undermine Vulcan. Build this three-way conflict from the start so that it doesn't need shoe-horned in once you get to Season Four like in real life.
    • A major theme of the show should also be the existence of Human colonies on Mars, Alpha Centauri, and Vega, and how those colonies simultaneously are dependent on the interstellar trade and resource-distribution infrastructure with Earth to survive, but also on how they're developing their own independent identities and want independence. Maybe Mars is already independent but still marginalized by Earth -- the Canada to Earth's United States, and they resent that. Make showing the flag and promoting unity part of the UES Enterprise's mission -- and make it a morally ambiguous part of her mission, and leave the audience wondering how much of trying to keep the colonies in line is a good thing. Make part of the series arc the process of United Earth learning to let go of imperial ambitions and to lead Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar down that same path.
    • Keep and expand the Vuclan Reformation arc from ENT S4. Make that an entire season of the show.
    • Make the Romulans a background element that gets teased as an upcoming threat for several years before shit finally hits the fan and the Earth-Romulus War begins.
     
  15. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    The boxy backpack in The Cage, I always thought it held mostly medical supplies for the "survivors."

    Something I found odd about The Cage was Captain Pike basically wasting time on the surface while the survivors collected their gear, like they were going to take them to the ship. Why not beam up as soon as possible?
     
  16. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Akin to taking their litter home with them? K.I.T! ;)
     
  17. Annatar

    Annatar Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    While I agree with most of this,

    Why would no Prime Directive equivalent exist? At the very least, there would be a hashed out first contact protocols that vary per race, which maybe no outright contact allowed with non space-faring, non-warp species; this could even be a tint imposed by the Vulcans; but even without the Vulcans there's little good to be had by Terrans coming down willy nilly everywhere. We already have equivalent mores in place with uncontacted tribes after our own records and ongoing ramifications of hundreds of years of forced cultural contact...

    What I would suggest is that the Prime Directive isn't, well, 'Prime'. It's just 'First Contact Protocols/Dialogue Protocols'. They're there for a good reason, but they're not dogmatic, and if a Starship could help a civilization or planet out, they would - even if it's just collecting food from one uninhabited part of the planet and dumping it close by at night under stealth ops to avert a famine in the inhabited regions, or making a aerosol vaccine to combat a plague on a Medieval world, because Earth just came out of catastrophe and there's a huge emphasis on biological diversity, a feeling that while some adversity is okay, crippling-level events often don't do much but stall development, and second chances, perhaps?

    If a life bearing world can be saved from a asteroid strike by some light Asteroid sheperding, UESPA would do it; as the Asteroid Belt and Kupier Belt and Oort Cloud are already almost a 'garden' and it's trivially easy to alter a orbit of a far flung rock (or even a incoming rock with 22nd level tech). If a species can be saved by vaccines or food, UESPA will try, and maybe if some dogmatic system is in place, maybe some UESPA agents or Intelligence are known to have come in and muck about with wetwork.... (Leading to some dark implications down the road, perhaps?)

    This would be, of course, a huge point of controversy with the Vulcans, but they're not like, going to undo what the Terrans did, but it does make them more wary of this 'young hotblooded species putting its nose in where it shouldn't ' compared to the more Fatalist Vulcans of the era?
     
    DarKush and Lexomatic like this.
  18. amp

    amp Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    It would be interesting if the protocols went the other way. As in Enterprise was instructed to render all possible aid to any civilizations who requires it. The reason being that the ship is a humanitarian ambassador and a demonstration of the Terrans desire for peace and goodwill.

    Then we could see an episode or two where Archer follows the protocol and it goes awry one way or another. The resulting decimation makes clear the dangers of interference and shows the reason the Prime Directive was put in place.
     
    Lexomatic and Annatar like this.