Babylon 5

[DonIago]

I can't figure out whether JMS was consciously (or otherwise) trying to bias his audience against telepaths, whether things didn't go as he intended, or whether they went exactly as he intended, but between Bester and many of the telepaths in the colony I found them ultimately very hard to sympathize with, especially any who invoked the "we're better than the mundanes" philosophy.

I think Byron at least meant well most of the time, but even he went off the rails on a couple of occasions. And I mostly liked Lyta and felt she'd been a bit mistreated until Byron's death ironically led to her betraying his ideals (which is to say, I don't think what she ultimately did was what he would have wanted).

 

[Booji]

So, any chance the Crusade script books continue?

 

[Jan]

Two days ago I received my Babylon 5 Encyclopedia...And its gorgeous!

Check out the entry for a certain Maintenance Man.

And enjoy!!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I haven't watched season 5 since the first time I watched through the show when my sophomore roommate introduced me to it, so I have little memory of what happened.

My feeling is that JMS meant to show us how evil Psi Corps was but not telepaths in general. Remember Ivonova was a latent telepath. With the whole colony storyline it strikes me as things normal people would do in that situation, people forced into this situation where they have to make terrible choices because they have this philosophy of superiority forced on them. And the way Lyta was treated, she seems like a saint not doing worse.

Look at the choices you have as a telepath here. You can join the Psi Corps, a place that will love you but force you to do terrible things. You can take drugs that make you dull and insane. Or you can find an outside force to protect you. Worked out for that season one girl who went to Mimbar. I guess they could have all gone to Mimbar. It takes a combination of moral and physical courage to try to resist and fight to have any kind of normal life without being a monster.

That's something they kinda ignored, I guess. That Delenn could have raised her hand and said "Hey wanna go to Mimbar? Other human telepaths are having a nice time there."

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I haven't watched season 5 since the first time I watched through the show when my sophomore roommate introduced me to it, so I have little memory of what happened.

My feeling is that JMS meant to show us how evil Psi Corps was but not telepaths in general. Remember Ivonova was a latent telepath. With the whole colony storyline it strikes me as things normal people would do in that situation, people forced into this situation where they have to make terrible choices because they have this philosophy of superiority forced on them. And the way Lyta was treated, she seems like a saint not doing worse.

Look at the choices you have as a telepath here. You can join the Psi Corps, a place that will love you but force you to do terrible things. You can take drugs that make you dull and insane. Or you can find an outside force to protect you. Worked out for that season one girl who went to Mimbar. I guess they could have all gone to Mimbar. It takes a combination of moral and physical courage to try to resist and fight to have any kind of normal life without being a monster.

That's something they kinda ignored, I guess. That Delenn could have raised her hand and said "Hey wanna go to Mimbar? Other human telepaths are having a nice time there."

I think you mean Minbar (which Wikipedia tells me is also the name for a pulpit in a mosque, but is pronounced "mimbar").

 

[David cgc]

Check out the entry for a certain Maintenance Man.

And enjoy!!

I got the on-line version, but I'd never checked that entry before.

Spoiler

Though I always enjoyed thinking of all those living legends having that emotional ride out together, along with some guy in a coverall.

 

[DonIago]

My feeling is that JMS meant to show us how evil Psi Corps was but not telepaths in general. Remember Ivonova was a latent telepath. With the whole colony storyline it strikes me as things normal people would do in that situation, people forced into this situation where they have to make terrible choices because they have this philosophy of superiority forced on them. And the way Lyta was treated, she seems like a saint not doing worse.

Look at the choices you have as a telepath here. You can join the Psi Corps, a place that will love you but force you to do terrible things. You can take drugs that make you dull and insane. Or you can find an outside force to protect you. Worked out for that season one girl who went to Mimbar. I guess they could have all gone to Mimbar. It takes a combination of moral and physical courage to try to resist and fight to have any kind of normal life without being a monster.

That's something they kinda ignored, I guess. That Delenn could have raised her hand and said "Hey wanna go to Mimbar? Other human telepaths are having a nice time there."

The telepaths asked for their own homeworld, then blackmailed the ambassadors by threatening to reveal their secrets, forcing Sheridan to withdraw his protection of the colony. Then half(?) of them barricaded themselves in Downbelow while the rest went violent. Then after order was finally restored Bester screws things up, Byron (intentionally?) martyrs himself and Lyta decides to betray his message in favor of waging war on Psi Corps.

I don't think many of these are things normal people would do.

I don't know WTH they thought was going to happen when they tried to blackmail the ambassadors.

 

[tomalak301]

This is the first time I'm watching Crusade in about 10-15 years. One thing I am noticing in the first three episodes is how "talky" it is. For a show about finding a cure to the Drakh plague, it feels like the urgency could have been brisker.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

I find when I re-watch Crusade that it felt like it had a ton of potential, and I also loved the medieval feel - riddles and mages - but with technology, sort of like a setting such as Numenera.

 

[DonIago]

I honestly feel like one of the main things keeping me from even adding Crusade to my wishlist is that I find the score incredibly hard to listen to. Like, if there was a no-music version (or an alternate music track), I'd be much happier. Rarely have I found music so...distracting.

 

[Forbin]

Pat Tallman once mentioned that while Lyta was being treated like shit on the show, the cast was unconsiously treating Pat the same way around the set.
Method actors? Poor Pat.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

This is the first time I'm watching Crusade in about 10-15 years. One thing I am noticing in the first three episodes is how "talky" it is.

That's kind of a B5 thing. Why settle for one or two lines when a long-winded speech will do?

 

[Jan]

This is the first time I'm watching Crusade in about 10-15 years. One thing I am noticing in the first three episodes is how "talky" it is. For a show about finding a cure to the Drakh plague, it feels like the urgency could have been brisker.

This might give you some insight as to why.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-6148

My original impression from the first episodes (black uniforms) was that Crusade felt 'watered down' compared to B5. Then when I got the the later ones (grey uniforms) I was much happier - and found that those were the ones with the least interference.

 

[tomalak301]

This might give you some insight as to why.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-6148

My original impression from the first episodes (black uniforms) was that Crusade felt 'watered down' compared to B5. Then when I got the the later ones (grey uniforms) I was much happier - and found that those were the ones with the least interference.

One of the things I vaguely remember about the uniform change was the whole comment about the Grey's looking like Bell hop uniforms. I always thought the blacks looked better and more "natural". Also, interesting comments about the "Well of Forever" which I saw last night. That episode did feel really talky, even though as the episode went on it wasn't bad.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The telepaths asked for their own homeworld, then blackmailed the ambassadors by threatening to reveal their secrets, forcing Sheridan to withdraw his protection of the colony. Then half(?) of them barricaded themselves in Downbelow while the rest went violent. Then after order was finally restored Bester screws things up, Byron (intentionally?) martyrs himself and Lyta decides to betray his message in favor of waging war on Psi Corps.

I don't think many of these are things normal people would do.

I don't know WTH they thought was going to happen when they tried to blackmail the ambassadors.

Normal people wouldn't be given the kind of choices they are given. Become a telepath supremacist who values the life of mundanes like animals, or become a vegetable. Those choices would radicalize anyone. Can you imagine how far Ivonova would have gone if she was ever discovered as a telepath?

Byron explored peaceful solutions before making his threat. His threat was obviously a terrible decision on his part, but he was desperate. Then Lyta just realized how powerful she was and rejected the choice altogether. I think most people who had gone through everything telepaths have gone through would either resign to joining the Psi Corps or they'd do far worse.

 

[Jan]

Byron explored peaceful solutions before making his threat. His threat was obviously a terrible decision on his part, but he was desperate. Then Lyta just realized how powerful she was and rejected the choice altogether. I think most people who had gone through everything telepaths have gone through would either resign to joining the Psi Corps or they'd do far worse.

I see it differently. Byron was a fairly classic example of an abused child who'd persuaded himself that he was abused due to his superiority. Then, while making love to Lyta, he discovers that there's no superiority, that he and his kind were designed and bred to be canon fodder. What was almost the first thing he said? "We would be normal...we would have lives...we would be able to walk and live and work among normals, without fear of persecution, if the Vorlons had not interfered with our normal development." In other words, all of his cherished illusions were destroyed and he struck out. I'm not saying I blame him but his demand was that of a hurt child, not the rational man we'd seen before that.

 

[DonIago]

Yeah...Byron never had reason to be desperate. One minute he's a pacifist, then he and Lyta do the naughty, he finds out their origins, and then suddenly he's all "We deserve a planet of our own because we were manipulated by aliens who aren't here anymore, and if you don't give it to us then we'll take it."

The colony on B5 was doing reasonably fine until he radicalized.

For all we know the IA or one of its member races would have given them a planet if they'd shown just a little patience.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Didn't Byron rebel from Psi Corps because of their disregard of mundane lives?

He was threatened with being sent right back to Psi Corps. He was backed into a corner, and angry. What would you expect?

The colony on B5 was NOT doing reasonably fine. They had a 2 month grace period with a manufactured quarantine after which Lochley was legally bound to surrender them.

 

[DonIago]

Well, at that point certainly trying to blackmail the ambassadors is going to improve matters!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I didn't say he was smart, I said he was understandable.

Fall of Centauri Prime might be the best ep of season 5. The grand payoff for Londo's character, showing Londo play the villain when we know what he wanted was for Centauri to take its place in the alliance.

Also totlally forgot Garibaldi's alcoholism came back. Another thing that makes B5 unique, they give a main character such a real world problem.

It raises question of how exactly what Londo does later saves anything. Did he somehow trick all other Draak into leaving Centauri Prime in preparation? How did killing that one keeper lead to a benevolent Vir dictatorship?