Babylon 5

[The Laughing Vulcan]

I'm watching it for the first time since it was originally broadcast, so it feels all fresh again to me. I'm up as far as Season 1's Eyes, and that was a bit of a shocker. There's one scene where Garibaldi refers to the visiting Col Ari Ben Zayn as Colonel Ben Hitler. That is such a no-no now, conflating Nazism and Judaism in any context (even if it's one fictional character in a futuristic sci-fi show), to any degree is a sackable offence. People get metaphorically crucified for doing stuff like that. It makes me wonder how it got through the script stage, back when Warners was still having an interest in the show.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You're not disputing that ben Zayn had fascist tendencies, are you?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

^ You're not disputing that ben Zayn had fascist tendencies, are you?

Certainly not. I'm talking about public sensibilities and sensitivities today in comparison to where they were 20 years ago. I just don't think that you could get away with writing a scene today, even in a fictional drama where someone of Jewish descent is compared to a Nazi.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Much apologizings for being thick, but is there any particular evidence that ben Zayn was in fact Jewish?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Other than the name itself, Ari ben Zayn, there's the mention that he had combat experience in Israel.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But that doesn't mean that ben Zayn himself is Jewish. Jerusalem has a wide variety of religions among its population - not just Jews, but also Christians and Muslims and probably many others.

Assuming ben Zayn is actually from Jerusalem. Perhaps he only served there and is from someplace else?

As for his name? Doesn't mean a whole lot. For example I've heard of Lutheran ministers named Goldstein...

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

^ But that doesn't mean that ben Zayn himself is Jewish. Jerusalem has a wide variety of religions among its population - not just Jews, but also Christians and Muslims and probably many others.

Assuming ben Zayn is actually from Jerusalem. Perhaps he only served there and is from someplace else?

As for his name? Doesn't mean a whole lot. For example I've heard of Lutheran ministers named Goldstein...

Occam's Razor and all that. Besides, I'm not the only one to make that assumption...

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0498/babylon1.html
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&client=firefox-a&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1&vwsrc=0

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And yet that site - operated by and for Jews - didn't seem particularly upset at the Ben Hitler crack, did it?

I mean, I can see how some people would be upset at it, but apparently they were not. Maybe they realized that ben Zayn deserved it.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It seems you could get away with characters saying things like that on TV in the early 90s. I didn't notice back then but then Garibaldi was definitely not politically correct and I didn't identify the ben Zayn character as probably being Jewish. What surprises me more is that Garibaldi would compare ben Zayn with someone from over 300 years ago who would likely be very obscure to most people who lived through the threat of near complete extinction by the Minbari only ten years previously. Of course, Ivanova would understand the reference, being Jewish. Who does he make the comment to anyway -- Sinclair or Lennier?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Garibaldi says what he thinks. He doesn't strike me as the type who cares about what anyone else thinks.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yeah, it seems you can't have characters like that on TV nowadays, I guess.

ETA, well I suppose you might get away with including it if you had someone like Ivanova call him out on his bullshit.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Did Ivanova object to Garibaldi's remark?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

She isn't in the scene, it's a conversation between Sinclair and Garibaldi

 

[JWPlatt]

I'm talking about public sensibilities and sensitivities today in comparison to where they were 20 years ago. I just don't think that you could get away with writing a scene today, even in a fictional drama where someone of Jewish descent is compared to a Nazi.

As Delenn might say, "Why not." A person adopting the behaviors of his enemy would be of the worst sort. It could be very illustrative of the highest hypocrisy.

 

[shivkala]

It seems you could get away with characters saying things like that on TV in the early 90s. I didn't notice back then but then Garibaldi was definitely not politically correct and I didn't identify the ben Zayn character as probably being Jewish. What surprises me more is that Garibaldi would compare ben Zayn with someone from over 300 years ago who would likely be very obscure to most people who lived through the threat of near complete extinction by the Minbari only ten years previously. Of course, Ivanova would understand the reference, being Jewish. Who does he make the comment to anyway -- Sinclair or Lennier?

"He's to the right of Attila the Hun."

I've often heard people use this phrase, comparing a person to someone from over 1,000 years ago. I think Hitler is someone who is going to be remembered and referred to for a long, long time. Even if we come to the edge of complete extinction. From what I can gather, the average human wouldn't know any Minbari to pin that on, either.

As for him saying whether he was Jewish or not, (a) as others have pointed out, it's Garibaldi, so he wouldn't care (or maybe he would and used it to specifically call him out for his hypocrisy) or (b) a friend of mine just graduated with a degree in anthropology (much to the delight of myself and a few other Archer fans, but I digress). He makes the point that currently, we're too close to the Holocaust to discuss it without strong emotions. A few hundred years in the future, it might be a more common saying and get the point across, but not be viewed as taboo as it is today.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

The issue seems to be getting a little muddied. My 'shock' wasn't at Garibaldi saying it in universe, I was taken aback by the line having been written in 1994. I'm just saying that the politically correct climate is such in 2016, that I doubt that the line would get past initial draft stage today.

 

[RandyS]

The issue seems to be getting a little muddied. My 'shock' wasn't at Garibaldi saying it in universe, I was taken aback by the line having been written in 1994. I'm just saying that the politically correct climate is such in 2016, that I doubt that the line would get past initial draft stage today.

Which is both sad and a shame. People today are WAY too oversensitive when it comes to words. The first admenment is meaningless anymore. Whatever happened to "I don't agree with what you said, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."??

Pathetic.

 

[Marsden]

The issue seems to be getting a little muddied. My 'shock' wasn't at Garibaldi saying it in universe, I was taken aback by the line having been written in 1994. I'm just saying that the politically correct climate is such in 2016, that I doubt that the line would get past initial draft stage today.

Which is a pity. I thought it was a good zinger at the time.

Do you think they could make Blazing Saddles now?

 

[Jan]

The issue seems to be getting a little muddied. My 'shock' wasn't at Garibaldi saying it in universe, I was taken aback by the line having been written in 1994. I'm just saying that the politically correct climate is such in 2016, that I doubt that the line would get past initial draft stage today.

FWIW, the script was written by a Jewish man. ETA: I was mistaken. Larry DiTillio apparently called his mother-in-law for information about Ivanova's Jewishness when he wanted to include sitting Shiva in the TKO story. Sorry for the mis-information.

My personal feeling is that this discussion is overthinking the whole thing. All the comment was, was shorthand that Ben Zayn was a dictator. No more, no less. I mean, even if a viewer hadn't seen the episode up to that point, is there any doubt whatsoever that they'd know what kind of person was being referred to?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The issue seems to be getting a little muddied. My 'shock' wasn't at Garibaldi saying it in universe, I was taken aback by the line having been written in 1994. I'm just saying that the politically correct climate is such in 2016, that I doubt that the line would get past initial draft stage today.

I find political correctness to be vastly overrated, and overused.

I see some people use PC as a way to shut people up and not voice their own individual opinions.