Babylon 5

[Gov Kodos]

IIRC that elevator scene evolved drastically from it's original conception, mostly (or entirely) due to Katsulas deciding that it would make more sense for G'Kar to be very pleased with the prospect of watching Londo die rather than (as was intended) for them to briefly overcome their differences and work together to save themselves.

It was a brilliant scene.

Not precisely, the scene was written as it is, not saving themselves, but it was written with G'Kar angry in his refusing to help. Instead, Katsulas and Jurasik thought it would play better with G'Kar finding the situation funny.

Stracynski revealed the details behind one of the iconic scenes in Babylon 5, where "Londo" and "G'Kar" are stuck in an elevator. In the scene, "G'Kar" hates "Londo" so much that he decides not to try to save them just so he can watch Londo die. Stracynski revealed that he intended the scene to be a very serious moment. When he walked on set at the beginning of filming, he heard the two actors laughing. Katsulas and Jurasik plead with Stracynski to allow them to try the scene with humor before doing it in a serious tone. Stracynski saw one take and told them to keep it the way they interpreted the moment. Speaking of Katsulas, Stracynski said, "He could always go one step further than you wanted it to go and make it extraordinary."

http://forum.gateworld.net/archive/index.php/t-87348.html

You can see JMS talking about it here starting at 6:35.

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[Reverend]

^Yeah, I was pretty sure I was misremembering the details of that.

Was Interlac some sort of Esperanto?

Pretty much. It's never spoken in dialogue but you can often hear it over the customs tannoy, repeating what was just announced in English. I think some of the "alien" lettering is also supposed to be interlac.

I don't think it was ever established which race came up with it or when. You'd think it was either the Centauri or the Minbari given their long running primacy. However I have a hard time seeing the Centuari doing anything but insisting their subject races learn to speak Centauri rather than some invented trade language and the Minbari seem to have been too historically isolationist.

Maybe the league worlds came up with it in committee?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Another problem of a universal language is the assumption of what the universal constants of a language are. Esperanto is assuming the grammar basics of western European languages. For speakers of non-European languages it is just as difficult. From a Japanese or Korean perspective, for instance, Esperanto is just as hard to learn as English or French already is. Extra terrestrial languages would likely have far greater hurdles to leap to establish anything like a universal language. It's a convenient conceit much like FTL drives for Sci-Fi but not likely to become a reality.

 

[Reverend]

I think the idea behind Interlac is that it's *easier* to translate, which suggests it has some sort of ordered mathematical base and not weighed down by any particular cultural bias. While it can obviously be spoken (at least by the races able to make noises in the vocal range of human-like species) I'd assume that most interlac communications are done via computer.
I'd also assume it the kind of language only really used by traders and other travellers that habitually deal with other races or by less established races who can't expect others to have learnt their language.

I imagine most traders can at least get by in Centauri which given their history is probably the most common commerce language.
Most of the major operators setting up n B5 would probably make a point to learn some english, but just about everyone else would almost certainly have to rely on interlac, even it's via a handheld translating device.

The idea Star Trek's universal language translator is a neat plot contrivance, but it's a bit hard to credit that anything can *instantly* translate a new language in 99% of cases without any context or background.

On the other hand, an artificial language with an easy to decrypt mathematical base can easily be programmed into many standard devices and as we see later on in the show, can be transmitted to an unknown race in order to establish basic communications.

 

[Gov Kodos]

That sounds far too treknobabble an explanation. Language isn't mathematics. Within very strict conceptions one can create some common terminology and phrasing. Buying a pizza, for instance, has a very restricted set of vocabulary and dialogue due to the situation. The further from very functional situations the more complex language you will need and that is where the universals fall apart since there really are none. The pizza situation is simple not because of language but because of the situation having so few options.

 

[Reverend]

Mathematics can absolutely be a language and visa-versa. You start with simple binary concepts and build on them. Once you have some base terms (positive/negative, object/person give/take etc.) you can extrapolate from there.
Again, it's not really meant to be a conversational language as a commerce language. You don't need to be able to discuss the weather or recite poetry, you just need to convey information in a basic form to get things started.
And that's with introducing it with a new race, once you get past that stage you can get the linguists and anthropologists working on more direct translations for a comprehensive (or at least functional) vocabulary matrix.

This is not entirely made up, SETI researchers have been thinking about this for decades and with that in mind it's a key plot point in Carl Sagan's 'Contact'. Mathematics in the *only* universal language in the universe since no matter how you express it, 1+1=2 and Pi is 3.14285....etc.etc.

 

[Kail]

Please tell me Londo is not going to grow a mustache for twirling. He's coming across now as an out and out genocidal sociopath. I'm guessing that Vir acts as his conscience, and that's why he's trying to get rid of him. Londo is getting a bit to cartoon villain for me.

 

[DonIago]

Wait for it.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Mathematics can absolutely be a language and visa-versa. You start with simple binary concepts and build on them. Once you have some base terms (positive/negative, object/person give/take etc.) you can extrapolate from there.
Again, it's not really meant to be a conversational language as a commerce language. You don't need to be able to discuss the weather or recite poetry, you just need to convey information in a basic form to get things started.
And that's with introducing it with a new race, once you get past that stage you can get the linguists and anthropologists working on more direct translations for a comprehensive (or at least functional) vocabulary matrix.

This is not entirely made up, SETI researchers have been thinking about this for decades and with that in mind it's a key plot point in Carl Sagan's 'Contact'. Mathematics in the *only* universal language in the universe since no matter how you express it, 1+1=2 and Pi is 3.14285....etc.etc.

I'm just going to disagree and leave it at that since it has nothing to do with this thread.

Please tell me Londo is not going to grow a mustache for twirling. He's coming across now as an out and out genocidal sociopath. I'm guessing that Vir acts as his conscience, and that's why he's trying to get rid of him. Londo is getting a bit to cartoon villain for me.

You'll love the 'Godwin on Ice' episode where Londo sings Wagner's Lohengrin Suite.

 

[RandyS]

Jeff pretty much was an extra in the beginning. He was a fan of the show and wanted to be part of the whole thing and the character kind of evolved from that in time. Or so I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I don't think you're wrong. I heard the same thing.

 

[Forbin]

And on a completely unrelated matter: Was there any explanation ever given for Londo's accent?

I mean, obviously B5 doesn't have a universal translator, so when characters speak English, they really are speaking it. At first I thought Londo just had a bad English teacher or something, but then why does Vir speak perfect English? Londo's even more "important" in Centauri society, so why doesn't he speak as well as Vir? I would think that somebody as well connected as Londo would have access to the very best teachers and tutors.

My mother's mother, and her mother's father, were from Scotland. My mother's father was from the Bronx, and she herself grew up in Brooklyn. My father and his parents were from New Jersey. At holiday dinners, Great-Grandpa had a dense Scots accent that I could barely understand. Grammy had only a light lilt, since she'd been in the US since she was 11. Grampy sounded exactly like Archie Bunker. Dad's side sounded "normal" for Jersey, except that his parents spoke more formally than is normal for nowadays since they were young in Victorian times. Currently, my Jersey-girl sister has been living in South Carolina for 20 years. She's picked up a minor southern accent. Her children, grown up down there, sound like deliverance.

And that's just one family, on a planet with no extraplanetary colonies! Imagine how many accents there must be in the Centari empire!

 

[Jan]

Please tell me Londo is not going to grow a mustache for twirling. He's coming across now as an out and out genocidal sociopath. I'm guessing that Vir acts as his conscience, and that's why he's trying to get rid of him. Londo is getting a bit to cartoon villain for me.

Never forget - nothing is just black and white with this show...

 

[Kail]

I like the new "like" button on the BBS.

 

[DonIago]

I like that you like the new "like" button, and consequently am liking your post about liking the "like" button.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You forgot the "Yo Dawg"

 

[Kail]

I like that you like the new "like" button, and consequently am liking your post about liking the "like" button.

As am I!

 

[JWPlatt]

Please tell me Londo is not going to grow a mustache for twirling.

Ok, Londo doesn't grow a mustache.

Btw, attempts to explain Londo accent are futile. Peter Jurasik explained in one of the interviews on the disks that it was something he tried for the character and, unfortunately, the series continued and he was stuck with it. Or was that about his hair? I forget which. Maybe both.

Londo and G'Kar's elevator scene was mentioned above. Play it unless it would be a spoiler:

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[Kail]

Speaking of "the hair", what's up with that? Is it a piece they stick on, or do they plaster the actors hair up like that? I suspect a bit of both for the Centauri. At first I thought the hair was silly, but it's grown on me. I'd say it Babylon 5's version of Spock's ears. Also, I don't think I ever mentioned how impressed I am with the alien make-up and appliances in general on this show. Spectacular! Especially impressive since I know what a tight budget this show was on.

 

[Kail]

I LOVE that elevator scene. Hilarious! Brilliant!

 

[Aeon]

For Vir (and many others, I think) they just kind of raised the hair up and added a little extension piece on top. As for Jurasik, he actually shaved his hair for The Gathering, but didn't really like being bald so they made what is essentially a bald cap. The clever thing is that it looks pretty seamless because it doesn't start at the hairline as you would think, but rather it goes across the upper nose, the eyes and the temples.

Edit: Forgot the source! TNT's Guide To Babylon 5 that aired somewhere around the beginning of the fifth season so clips can be spoilerific. It can be found on YouTube. Overall propably the most interesting tidbits were about the makeup in the interviews of Furst and Jurasik.