Babylon 5
- Thread starter Kail
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I regularly use the following Ivanova-ism at work, much to my own amusement:
"If you will excuse me, I'm in the middle of 15 things, all of them annoying"
I also have co-opted one of her quotes for general police use:
"No shit today? Shit tomorrow. There's always shit tomorrow"
Hugo - she's a queen
"If you will excuse me, I'm in the middle of 15 things, all of them annoying"
I also have co-opted one of her quotes for general police use:
"No shit today? Shit tomorrow. There's always shit tomorrow"
Hugo - she's a queen
Boom. Boom boom boom. Boom boom. BOOM! Have a nice day.
I love stylized dialogue. Whether it's Shakespeare or Twilight Zone or Stan Lee, it's great when you can tell a writer just by reading the dialogue. Realism has its place, of course, but it's mostly boring.
Ivanova had some great lines --
Ivanova is awesome.
One of hers that just dropped me to the floor laughing was in War Without End. Sheridan, Sinclair and Zathros are each, in turn, giving a dense expository speech about the complexities and vaguaries of time travel and the definitions of "The One." They all then look at Inanova as if it's her turn. She looks at them all, utterly lost, and says "I'll be in the car."
I think I've brought this up in the thread previously, but Babylon 5, for all that it's described as being Science Fiction, would be more accurately described as "Space High Fantasy", specifically "The Lord of the Rings in Space", because the parallels between the two stories are blatantly obvious even beyond the fact that JMS specifically and deliberately 'cribbed' the word Z'ha'dum directly from LotR.
I'm just going to pretend I haven't already had this exact conversation 253 times in the last 15 years and point out that JMS has been very clear about where he drew his influences and it was mostly things like Foundation, Lensman, a little HPL here and there, a healthy dose of Rod Serling and some ancient Babylonian mythology mixed with some historical allegory.
The extent to which Tolkien influenced Babylon 5 is no more than it's influenced just about every other genre fan in the last half century. He may have used a few familiar sounding names and dropped a reference here or there in dialogue but that's all just surface level. lt has nothing to do with the themes, story structure, character motivations or the mythological underpinnings.
Seriously, if I had a penny every time some nitwit thought they were being clever and insightful for noticing how the word "Lorien" reminded them of "Lothlórien", "Z'ha'dum" sounded vaguely like "Khazad-dûm", how "Rangers" sounded like...uh..."Rangers" and that Elric dropped some Gandalf wisdom...Well then I'd probably be able to single-handedly fund a restored Bluray release.
The extent to which Tolkien influenced Babylon 5 is no more than it's influenced just about every other genre fan in the last half century. He may have used a few familiar sounding names and dropped a reference here or there in dialogue but that's all just surface level. lt has nothing to do with the themes, story structure, character motivations or the mythological underpinnings.
Seriously, if I had a penny every time some nitwit thought they were being clever and insightful for noticing how the word "Lorien" reminded them of "Lothlórien", "Z'ha'dum" sounded vaguely like "Khazad-dûm", how "Rangers" sounded like...uh..."Rangers" and that Elric dropped some Gandalf wisdom...Well then I'd probably be able to single-handedly fund a restored Bluray release.
^I agree with that apart from calling people who point out the similarities "nitwits".
I had gotten the impression that JMS had admitted the degree to which LotR influenced B5, but apparently I was mistaken.
However, there are far too many direct parallels between the two series for it to be mere coincidence or for people to be, as JMS put it, "misunderstanding the correlation between the two shows".
However, there are far too many direct parallels between the two series for it to be mere coincidence or for people to be, as JMS put it, "misunderstanding the correlation between the two shows".
It's not aimed at anyone in particular, but after going on two decades of repetition I can't help but characterise all those people as one amorphous entity...and I'm sorry, but it's a nitwit.
People see correlations all the time and think they're the first to have noticed them. With experience and time, one learns that it's almost impossible to come up with something original. I just tune it out unless I'm having a bad day.
Reverend very articulately described the clear influences on B5 from The Lensmen to HP Lovecraft. All he got from Tolkien was no more than a coupe of sentences. There's no re-establishing a longed for monarchy, no fulfilling a divinely written destiny handed down from god himself, nothing.
No ring of power either, provided we ignore the one that Delenn had in the pilot and which was never seen again.
JMS may downplay the similarities, but describing B5 as an analogue to LotR isn't inaccurate based on what he actually put into the series itself.
In a way, it's not surprising that the LotR thing is so persistent. For one thing way more people today have read LotR (or at least watched the movies) than probably ever read Lensman and the Tolkien references that are there (intentional and accidental) are only superficial and thus require much less thought and insight to divine.
If you think he's lying then first off: to what end exactly? I mean he's already "admitted" to half-inching ideas from a dozen other authors, why do you think he'd be so reticent to include Tolkien in that list? Secondly: if it means that much to you, you're free to engage the services of a commercial telepath and request that he submit to a surface scan to clear the matter up.
Uh, actually yes it is. Very inaccurate and quite demonstrably so. And I'd hardly characterise what JMS said as "downplaying" as that presupposes there's some case to answer. He quite clearly stated what his main influences and inspirations were. If that doesn't line up with your own pet theories then I'm afraid that's on you.
If you think he's lying then first off: to what end exactly? I mean he's already "admitted" to half-inching ideas from a dozen other authors, why do you think he'd be so reticent to include Tolkien in that list? Secondly: if it means that much to you, you're free to engage the services of a commercial telepath and request that he submit to a surface scan to clear the matter up.
I don't think JMS is lying when he says that LotR wasn't one of his primary influences (even though him saying this contradicts my own previous understanding on the subject as conveyed by him and in his own words). What I'm saying is that, although he doesn't directly cite that series as an influence, the evidence of Babylon 5's contents demonstrates that there are far too many strong and direct parallels between it and LotR to discount the latter as being an influence, deliberate or otherwise.
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