Babylon 5

[Sci]

I'm pretty much on Byron's side. His desire for a telepath world was completely legitimate and understandable. He tried working with and for Sheridan's power structure, but Sheridan took him and his people for granted, exploited them, and refused to actually fight for their interests. Sheridan and company were hypocrites and bigots -- look at the way he treated Lyta for years.

 

[David cgc]

Lyta did blow up a planet, refused to take responsibility for it, and implied she was a Manchurian Candidate... and then proved she was, like, a month later.

Sheridan doesn't like being lied to or manipulated, especially by people whose actions he's responsible for. It comes up repeatedly. He gives Stephen essentially the exact same "Never, ever, ever do this again or I'll have you shot" speech after he finds out that he'd been running the telepath underground railroad. He sets up a war council in season 3 specifically because he's afraid hidden agendas and secret plans among his allies might cause them to hurt each other.

And destroying Z'ha'dum was a bad call. At best, at best, Lyta was condemning a hundred innocent people to a living hell of endless hunger for the Machine because one of them had the misfortune to draw the affections of Al Bester, and she was willing to hurt all of them to hurt Carolyn specifically, just to use the suffering of that innocent person to hurt Bester. That'd be bad enough, but there's a straight line between the destruction of Z'ha'dum and the Drakh taking over Centauri Prime, so that's thousands of people dead in the raids and subsequent war, and millions in the bombardment and the eventual detonation of the Drakh's hidden doomsday bombs when they were driven from the planet. It's an open question whether, if they'd been able to stay where they were, they'd be so motivated to destroy the ISA as to attack Earth and Minbar, but let's be generous to her and say they would've anyway.

Lyta did an incredibly shitty thing for petty, vindictive reasons (or she's not in control of her own senses and judgement, which isn't better), exploited Sheridan's trust to do it, and didn't even imply she'd stop doing things like that. Yes, if you say, "I don't work for you, I do what I want, try and stop me," you don't get to be all shocked Pikachu when you find out you weren't added to the payroll without even asking for it. Crediting that to anti-telepath bigotry really removes all of Lyta's agency in overtly asserting her independence and very much not trying to be part of the family.

 

[Tim Walker]

Plus, CLUE is just a really, really fun movie with a great cast.

You might also enjoy Murder By Death.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm pretty much on Byron's side. His desire for a telepath world was completely legitimate and understandable. He tried working with and for Sheridan's power structure, but Sheridan took him and his people for granted, exploited them, and refused to actually fight for their interests. Sheridan and company were hypocrites and bigots -- look at the way he treated Lyta for years.

Byron just expected a planet to be given to him, because it was the fair thing to do, from his perspective and only his perspective.

Did not want to work a lick for his dream.

John gave them a billion creds worth of real estate with no exceptions, stipulations, conditions or strings. Lets assume it was a warehouse the size of 18 football fields, spread across 20 floors, all up? I would define a colony as more than 10 thousand telepaths, especially if your next home is going to be a whole planet, so that's about as much space as they would eventually need. Um. If they charged rent at half market value, and leased out the space they were not using, the telepaths would have been multi millionaires in months, with no over head, and then they could have bought a damn moon, and stop whinging.

But all they did was start half day long orgies, and feel sorry for themselves.

Superior evolved humans, my ass.

 

[DonIago]

Lyta did blow up a planet, refused to take responsibility for it, and implied she was a Manchurian Candidate... and then proved she was, like, a month later.

Sheridan doesn't like being lied to or manipulated, especially by people whose actions he's responsible for. It comes up repeatedly. He gives Stephen essentially the exact same "Never, ever, ever do this again or I'll have you shot" speech after he finds out that he'd been running the telepath underground railroad. He sets up a war council in season 3 specifically because he's afraid hidden agendas and secret plans among his allies might cause them to hurt each other.

And destroying Z'ha'dum was a bad call. At best, at best, Lyta was condemning a hundred innocent people to a living hell of endless hunger for the Machine because one of them had the misfortune to draw the affections of Al Bester, and she was willing to hurt all of them to hurt Carolyn specifically, just to use the suffering of that innocent person to hurt Bester. That'd be bad enough, but there's a straight line between the destruction of Z'ha'dum and the Drakh taking over Centauri Prime, so that's thousands of people dead in the raids and subsequent war, and millions in the bombardment and the eventual detonation of the Drakh's hidden doomsday bombs when they were driven from the planet. It's an open question whether, if they'd been able to stay where they were, they'd be so motivated to destroy the ISA as to attack Earth and Minbar, but let's be generous to her and say they would've anyway.

Lyta did an incredibly shitty thing for petty, vindictive reasons (or she's not in control of her own senses and judgement, which isn't better), exploited Sheridan's trust to do it, and didn't even imply she'd stop doing things like that. Yes, if you say, "I don't work for you, I do what I want, try and stop me," you don't get to be all shocked Pikachu when you find out you weren't added to the payroll without even asking for it. Crediting that to anti-telepath bigotry really removes all of Lyta's agency in overtly asserting her independence and very much not trying to be part of the family.

While I don't disagree with your points, I kind of wonder whether Our Heroes (and who else?) being able to plunder Z'ha'dum would be a bit like folks in the MCU coming across the Darkhold. Which is to say, it would be impossible to study Shadow tech without at least unconsciously being corrupted by it.

 

[Sci]

I wasn't even talking about the conflict between Sheridan and Lyta over Z'ha'dum. I was talking about the way he constantly used her, provided her with completely inadequate payment, completely ignored her when she wasn't of use to him, and was allowing her to fall into abject poverty. He acts like he would rather pretend she doesn't exist when he doesn't need her abilities.

 

[Guy Gardener]

While I don't disagree with your points, I kind of wonder whether Our Heroes (and who else?) being able to plunder Z'ha'dum would be a bit like folks in the MCU coming across the Darkhold. Which is to say, it would be impossible to study Shadow tech without at least unconsciously being corrupted by it.

The Factories that built Earth's advanced Destroyers were still on Earth, on liberation day, still making more Earth/Shadow hybrid vessels to be deployed by Earth Force... It's possible Sheridan asked that Earth destroyed their factories, and destroyed the undeployed Advanced Model Destroyers, but that's trillions of credits worth of ordinance, so that's not going to happen, especially if there are humans hypocritically smart enough to be working with Vorlon Tech and all is fine.

Maybe if humans had to merge with the AMD to act as a CPU, but Earth science must have found a work around for that, but if there was an ethical question to using these ships, that many humans have be outright murdered to keep the navicomp running... Really? How long do you think a merged human lasts inside a ship, before they go crazy and become unserviceable. Maybe if they could get the advanced destroyers to run on puppies? After all, that's what the Shadows thought of the Younger races. Puppies to be shoveled into the ships boiler.

Point is, there was plenty of Shadow Tech on Earth, long after the Shadows left.

The Technomages meanwhile used Shadow tech, and they hadn't had to do anything a Shadow had told them to do in over a thousand years, or become unpredictably corrupted from using Tech they viewed as their own, after a thousand years of appropriation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I wasn't even talking about the conflict between Sheridan and Lyta over Z'ha'dum. I was talking about the way he constantly used her, provided her with completely inadequate payment, completely ignored her when she wasn't of use to him, and was allowing her to fall into abject poverty. He acts like he would rather pretend she doesn't exist when he doesn't need her abilities.

Imagine you had a friend, who went though your wallet and pockets every time you saw them, who you were not married to?

 

[somebuddyX]

That'd be bad enough, but there's a straight line between the destruction of Z'ha'dum and the Drakh taking over Centauri Prime, so that's thousands of people dead in the raids and subsequent war, and millions in the bombardment and the eventual detonation of the Drakh's hidden doomsday bombs when they were driven from the planet.

The Drakh were already on their way to Centauri Prime before Lyta showed up though.

 

[somebuddyX]

The Factories that built Earth's advanced Destroyers were still on Earth, on liberation day, still making more Earth/Shadow hybrid vessels to be deployed by Earth Force... It's possible Sheridan asked that Earth destroyed their factories, and destroyed the undeployed Advanced Model Destroyers, but that's trillions of credits worth of ordinance, so that's not going to happen, especially if humans smart enough to be working with Vorlon Tech and all is fine.

Maybe if humans had to merge with the AMD to act as a CPU, but Earth science must have found a work around for that, and there was an ethical question to using these ships, that many humans have be outright murdered to keep the navicomp running... Really? How long do you think a merged human lasts inside a ship, before they go crazy and become serviceable.

Point is, there was plenty of Shadow Tech on Earth, long after the Shadows left.

The Technomages used Shadow tech, and they hadn't had to do anything a Shadow had told them to do in over a thousand years, or become unpredictably corrupted from using Tech they viewed as their own, after a thousand years of appropriation.

They also already had those working Shadow hybrids from "Crusade." That's the thing I always wondered about. The one that blew up Cerberus was active in 2259, yet Earth only had those knockoff Omegas in 2261. It's not totally incompatible but it just seems a bit odd.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They also already had those working Shadow hybrids from "Crusade." That's the thing I always wondered about. The one that blew up Cerberus was active in 2259, yet Earth only had those knockoff Omegas in 2261. It's not totally incompatible but it just seems a bit odd.

"Wow" is that how the Telepath War starts?

When the Psi Corps figures out that Earth Ships are using telepaths as computer parts?

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Drakh were already on their way to Centauri Prime before Lyta showed up though.

Lyta, a humanitarian, probably gave the Drakh a couple hours warning to pack their bags.

If she hadn't blown up Za'ha'Dum, the drahk would have expertly manned the Shadow's defenses and chased off anyone who approached "their" world.

 

[Tim Walker]

Alternative Time Lines

The Centauri go into conquest modes at points other than in the series.

Centauri go full on Digger.
Two of the scenarios in this thread have both the Centauri and Dilgar in conquering mode at the same time.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"Wow" is that how the Telepath War starts?

When the Psi Corps figures out that Earth Ships are using telepaths as computer parts?

Not exactly.

It was Psi Corps on one side, and both mundanes and non-Corps telepaths on the other.

 

[Tim Walker]

Plausible scenario in the original time line. However, I would expect IPX to be very active in the Market system.

 

[David cgc]

They also already had those working Shadow hybrids from "Crusade." That's the thing I always wondered about. The one that blew up Cerberus was active in 2259, yet Earth only had those knockoff Omegas in 2261. It's not totally incompatible but it just seems a bit odd.

Without knowing where Crusade was going, it's hard to guess, but IIRC, the Technomage novels suggest that the first Shadow Hybrid that destroyed the Cerberus was as wildly out-of-control and omnicidal as the poor bastard who tried to fly the Shadow ship at Ganymede. I don't remember if "End of the Line" established anything specifically about what state the second one that the Excalibur fought in "To the Ends of the Earth" was in, but even if it was a practical warship that could reliably carry out orders, it's possible that five years earlier, the only way Earth Force had to ensure a Shadow-tech ship would actually shoot at the people you wanted it to shoot at was to limit it to weapons and armor attached to a conventional ship with a conventional crew ("Hidden Agendas" said that the Warlock destroyers had Shadow parts in their main computers, as well, so the upgrades might've gone a bit deeper than that).

 

[Ithekro]

I wonder how the Warlocks did with what I guess was some Minbari tech for the gravity systems and improved drive system.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not exactly.

It was Psi Corps on one side, and both mundanes and non-Corps telepaths on the other. Linky

Joke link?

Implying a mind wipe?

I barely remember reading the books, but I don't believe books are Canon, because even if George Lucas swore his books were canon, suddenly 4 billion dollars changes hands, and Disney says that they are not.

The Psi Corp Trilogy were not terrible, but they based their war, on the French resistance of WWII, which is not how you fight a telepathic war, if you are smart.

1. Walk into Earthdome and scan the senate, find the senators who are pedophiles and murders. Bend them to your will. They will betray their own kind if you let them keep diddling kids.

2. You don't use explosions, you take bank accounts and you take all their money, from the government and the politicians and the companies.

3. After you have their money, you dump their secrets anyway.

4. After creating a power vacuum, you put in you own people, telepaths, into place, to run the planet and the companies.

5. Total victory.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Joke link?

No.

It's from the official B5 wiki.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No.

It's from the official B5 wiki.

Have you followed the link?

It's empty.

There's a copyright claim on it.

JMS doesn't want his 20 year old book spoiled.

The given link is for "the telepath wa"

There is a different link for the "telepath war".

https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Telepath_War?so=search