Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[tomalak301]

The Needs of Earth

There was something to like about this episode, mainly coming at the end where the revelation was brought out. There was more to this mission than curing earth, but I'm afraid that whole idea of hope felt a bit heavy handed, even though I liked that whole juxtaposition in B5. Here I thought the message was good, but it could have been a bit more subtle. Did like finding out more about Dureena though, given we really haven't had much Dureena episodes this season.

Visitors from Down the Street

I just read this episode was a parody of The X-Files. I guess that's well and good, but I barely watched The X-Files, so I found this episode preposterious. I guess knowing I'm one episode away from the end of the series I wish there was more so maybe I can't blame this episode for that but man what a very out-there type story (And yes, that was a pun intended ).

 

[Mr Light]

"Racing the Night" was my favorite CRU ep, a great blend of action and humor. I didn't care for "Visitors" and I loved X-Files. I agree the black uniforms looked better than the grey/red ones which looked like pajamas.

 

[Reverend]

"Visitors" is easily my least favourite Crusade episode. It's good to have a show tries different things and I usually like the off-format eps, but this one just came out stale, pointless and frankly boring. The X-Files parody just served to make it predictable to boot.

 

[Jan]

"Visitors" is also my least favorite and I agree with Reverend that it's at least partly due to its predictability. Even I, who barely saw a handful of X-Files episodes could see what was coming.

On the other hand, isn't this the episode where Matheson wonders about interfering with that planet's natural development and Gideon replies "Screw 'em"? I did like that small statement about the B5 universe's lack of a Prime Directive.

Jan

 

[tomalak301]

^The final 5 minutes were the best part of the episode. Unfortunately, yeah it's probably my least favorite episode of the series too.

 

[Mal]

Racing the Night

Interesting moral dilemma, even though there was a part of me that was kinda hoping Gideon would take the deal.

you know your show is in a bad way when Voyager does a better "Morals" episode then you...

 

[Mal]

The Needs of Earth

I'm afraid that whole idea of hope felt a bit heavy handed, even though I liked that whole juxtaposition in B5. Here I thought the message was good, but it could have been a bit more subtle.

what annoyed me is that it all seemed so damn fake. ooooh, these evil edicts to burn art. but it didn't have to be that way. JMS could simply have simple written a parable based on The Cultural Revolution in China. unfortunately, The Great Maker's cultural education doesn't really seem to extend much past Europe.

seeing the ranger reminded me: Why aren't there any minbari crew members?!?! the Excalibur is a vorlon/minbari hybrid (like the White Star), built by humans - for sure - but designed in large part by minbari. shouldn't there be some minbari on board, if only below decks, taking care of the innards?

 

[Reverend]

On the other hand, isn't this the episode where Matheson wonders about interfering with that planet's natural development and Gideon replies "Screw 'em"? I did like that small statement about the B5 universe's lack of a Prime Directive.

Jan

I liked that element too. In fact I think that's sort of been hinted at a few times before. If memory serves, in "Voice in the Wilderness" Sinclair said something to the effect of: "This isn't some backwater colony or a bronze tech world where you can bare your teeth and make everyone fall in line."
So Earthforce clearly have no trouble with the idea of making contact with, or even bullying less advanced species if it suits their needs. Not unlike just about every other human empire that ever existed.

seeing the ranger reminded me: Why aren't there any minbari crew members?!?! the Excalibur is a vorlon/minbari hybrid (like the White Star), built by humans - for sure - but designed in large part by minbari. shouldn't there be some minbari on board, if only below decks, taking care of the innards?

I think it was stated flat out in 'A Call to Arms' that the new Destroyers were specifically designed so that any trained Earthforce crew could run them.
Plus there's the fact that, beyond a certain point, the more advanced a technology is, the less attention it requires. Given their organic nature I'm sure a pure Vorlon ship is totally self sufficient.

 

[Jan]

seeing the ranger reminded me: Why aren't there any minbari crew members?!?! the Excalibur is a vorlon/minbari hybrid (like the White Star), built by humans - for sure - but designed in large part by minbari. shouldn't there be some minbari on board, if only below decks, taking care of the innards?

Could be we just never saw them? Mainly, though, I'm pretty sure that it would be because the ship is under Earth Alliance, not the Interstellar Alliance. How many Minbari are likely to work for the EA?

Jan

 

[Mal]

seeing the ranger reminded me: Why aren't there any minbari crew members?!?! the Excalibur is a vorlon/minbari hybrid (like the White Star), built by humans - for sure - but designed in large part by minbari. shouldn't there be some minbari on board, if only below decks, taking care of the innards?

Could be we just never saw them? Mainly, though, I'm pretty sure that it would be because the ship is under Earth Alliance, not the Interstellar Alliance. How many Minbari are likely to work for the EA?

Jan

not to be obvious, but neither did galen, nor did max, nor did dureena (nor, most probably, did doctor chambers) work for EarthForce. so that can't be the issue...

 

[tomalak301]

Each Night I dream of Home

I have a question. There is another thread going on in this forum about the Cancellation of Firefly being unforgiveable, and my first thought was people should get over it because it happened about 6 or 7 years ago. Well, because I just saw a series that never made it to air and is about 10 years old, am I safe to say that TNT's cancellation of Crusade is unforgiveable or is that hypocritical in a way.

I ask because I have another question. Why the heck did the last aired episode of Crusade have to be the Best? Good lord I really want to know what happens next, and I will never get that opportunity because the network with the tagline "We Know Drama" couldn't see the good drama in this series. We learned so much from this episode, such as the virus in a sense may be alive and communicating with itself and is somewhat similar to the Techomage virus. Also, the Virus may have a hive mind, and just all that we have learned in these 13 episodes about the virus is interesting that I really want to know how do they end up beating the thing? Also, they mentioned something at the end about a central network for the Virus, and I was wondering if that was where the show was heading after they did find a cure.

I was really surprised that Biggs had a guest role on this show but he was utlized greatly. Also loved the battle sequence, and while there are continuity glitches (Personally, I looked at the grey uniformed episodes as "fill-in-the-gaps" to make the other episodes more whole) regarding Gideon and Lochley's relationship among other things, those two have such great chemistry together. I'm just really saddened that this series is over because there was so much more that could have been said.

As for the overall show, I think I've talked about most of it already as to my feelings, but I liked it. B5 was so much better, (I don't think you can compare them really) but for what this series was, it was enjoyable and the cast was good. I just wish there was more, or maybe a Crusade movie reuniting the cast written by JMS to tie up the lose ends. Of course it's been 10 years so that won't happen, but I really wish it would.

As for my favorite episodes, I liked the ones with Lochley the best. Maybe the plots left something to be desired, but the chemistry was spot on and the side stuff with the witty banter was awesome and fun. As for the non-Lochley episodes, I guess my favorite was The Path of Sorrows, mainly because it gave Gideon, Galen, and Matheson some good backstory and development.

So now there are only two more B5 related things left. I can't believe two months ago I was writing about Sleeping in Light, and a month later it feels sad again that I'm running out of B5 related material other than the books.

I must know though, canon or non-canon was it ever written how the Drakh plague was beaten? What ended up happening?

 

[Jan]

Each Night I dream of Home

I have a question. There is another thread going on in this forum about the Cancellation of Firefly being unforgiveable, and my first thought was people should get over it because it happened about 6 or 7 years ago. Well, because I just saw a series that never made it to air and is about 10 years old, am I safe to say that TNT's cancellation of Crusade is unforgiveable or is that hypocritical in a way.

<shrug> I don't know how things are now but I gather there were two divisions of TNT back then and part of the problem was conflicting notes because of that. That said, years later JMS found out that TNT did a study during B5 and found out that the TNT audience left and the B5 audience came in for B5 and then the process reversed when the show was over so TNT wasn't gaining any viewers with B5 and that's what drove them to set it up so that they could pull out.

I ask because I have another question. Why the heck did the last aired episode of Crusade have to be the Best?

Probably because that was the last completely non-interfered-with episode.

Good lord I really want to know what happens next, and I will never get that opportunity because the network with the tagline "We Know Drama" couldn't see the good drama in this series.

Yeah, but that was a brand new slogan. They were pretty new at original content at that time.

As for the overall show, I think I've talked about most of it already as to my feelings, but I liked it. B5 was so much better, (I don't think you can compare them really) but for what this series was, it was enjoyable and the cast was good. I just wish there was more, or maybe a Crusade movie reuniting the cast written by JMS to tie up the lose ends. Of course it's been 10 years so that won't happen, but I really wish it would.

Many of us have been waiting for the Crusade script books to come out because JMS has said that he'll likely share what plans he had for the show. He posted the other day that there was movement in that area but there's no word on when they might come out.

I must know though, canon or non-canon was it ever written how the Drakh plague was beaten? What ended up happening?

No details, no. Guess we'll have to wait for the Crusade books and hope that's in there.

Jan

 

[Harvey]

The most we know about the plague was that Gideon and co. were responsible for beating it. It's said as such (to Galen, I believe) in the Legions of Fire series.

 

[tomalak301]

I know the "We know Drama" slogan didn't exist at the time, but the point still remains. It just seemed like TNT didn't even want to give this show a chance. Hell, it's a shame in hindsight that B5 was even associated with TNT and not a network like Sci-Fi (Who at the time was quite young and had a lot of great quality shows like Farscape. Just think, shows like Lexx, Farscape, First Wave, and Crusade on the original Sci-Fi Friday Line up. That would be quite interesting.

 

[Jan]

It's a mixed blessing. Without TNT we never would have gotten season five, either. When things went bad for Crusade, Sci-Fi did everything they could to get it and the B5 reruns that TNT also had under contract but TNT made it financially impossible for them.

For those who haven't seen it, here's a little story that JMS told after Crusade was cancelled.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

That's exactly right, they didn't want to give it a chance. They discovered they weren't gaining anything from broadcasting B5 so they set out to sabotage the show so they could cancel it without getting done for a breach of contract. Seriously, you should see some of the notes they sent JMS & co, crazy backwards talking contradictory stuff.

As for how it "ended", while there's never been any details, JMS has dropped a few hints here and there.

Spoiler: Crusade's future

Specifically that the plague would be cured midway through season two, that there would at first be a "false cure" developed by the EA (if memory serves) and the Excalibur crew would get blackballed and forced to go rogue. Dureena's interest in learing the ways of the Technomage's would lead to her disappearing for a while then re-appearing with no memory but with some kind of mysterious sword in tow.

Then there are the three unfilmed scripts that found their way out into the public's grubby paws some years ago. One (Value Judgements) where the crew encounters an old powerful telepath called Al living on a backwater colony, hiding from people chasing him working for a Mr. Garibaldi.

Then there were a pair that dealt with the truth behind the destruction of the Cerberus and the origin of that shadow ship. One that would have taken place just a few eps after 'Each Night' and would have the Excalibur hunting down and killing one of those things after it attacked an alien transport. The punch at the end of the episode would have been a close-up of some human artifacts floating among the ship's debris (a watch, if memory serves) hinting that there were humans aboard.

The second one, a sequel ep of sorts would have been the season finale and involve the crew picking up the trail of that ship again and finding it's homebase...which turns out to be an secret Earthforce facility where they're experimenting with Shadow Tech, including trying to create their own technomages by grafting the tech onto some poor unfortunates and in the process revealing that the technomages had originally been created by the shadows and that the real reason they ran back in B5 season 2 was because Earthforce Bio-Weapons Division was chasing them.
And yes, those are the ones behind, Max's employers, IPX (mentioned way back in B5 Season 1 'Infection'), the one behind those experiments on the AWOL Gropos ('Patterns of the Soul') the one with ties to Psi-Corp and those digs on Mars and Ganymede ('Messages from Earth')...oh and the ones that figured out how long Earth has to cure the plague in two minutes flat...almost as if they already had some expertise with the technology. Can we say Bureau 13? Well no, because of copyright infringement, but I reckon it's them all the same, under some other name. Can we say source of the false cure? Maybe.
So, the episode ends on Mars with Gideon intent on blowing the lid off the whole thing. Cut to Gideon on a podium about to make a public speech, as seen through the lens of a sniper scope. Fade to black. Gunshot.

The next twist would have been Gideon's soul (or neural imprint, whichever suits your taste) being trapped inside the Apocalypse Box. Presumably at some point he gets out and back into his corpse and one can only assume is forever changed by the experience.

That's about all we know (correct me Jan if I missed anything) and though it may seam like allot, remember that we knew allot in Season 1 of B5, but not necessarily in-context, so I'm sure there's plenty we don't know.

P.S. All we know of the mission from 'Legion of Fire' is that some of the crew wrote books about it.

 

[chrisspringob]

tomalak, you're not quite done with Crusade, as there are the unproduced scripts for you to read. (Yes, there is a script for what would have been the Season 1 finale of Crusade, but it was never produced.) The scripts were available on the website "bookface.com" many years ago, so many of us have read them, and they should be available in print when JMS finally does the Crusade scriptbooks.

 

[Jan]

Excellent synopsis, Reverend. One quibble, though on a term you used:

Then there are the three unfilmed scripts that found their way out into the public domain some years ago.

It's important to note that those scripts are not in the public domain, which means that the copyright has expired (or was never copyrighted), only that JMS and Fiona Avery made them available for free online for a short time.

Jan

 

[Mal]

Excellent synopsis, Reverend. One quibble, though on a term you used:

Then there are the three unfilmed scripts that found their way out into the public domain some years ago.

It's important to note that those scripts are not in the public domain, which means that the copyright has expired (or was never copyrighted), only that JMS and Fiona Avery made them available for free online for a short time.

Jan

as Natchok Var reminds us in Crusade 1x11 The Needs of Earth, evil regimes do the following:

Today the final edict came down, the death warrant for everything we have built as a people.

They are burning the books, they are burning the music, the art, tearing down the statutes. Our leaders say that art is a waste of time, that art is decadent, that art is subversive. Indecent.

They say we must become more competitive, more aggressive. That we cannot support the drain on our moral strength placed upon us by ideas that do not support the goals of the state. Stories and music that do not reinforce the will of the state. Art that does n...

And so, again in Natchok Var's words, JMS has:

They have erased it all from the planetary data banks. And burned all the copies in private hands. Nearly all. I have the last copy. I have it all. If I can escape, I will try and find someone somewhere who can appreciate what we have. What we had. Perhaps some day, my people will understand what they have lost and ask for it back. That hope is all that sustains me.

Of course, Jan would have you wait, to pay for the script books. But Natchok Var knew better:

When I find the right person, the right place, it will be given freely.

But I forget. This is, after all, just a deep space franchise...

 

[Jan]

Of course, Jan would have you wait, to pay for the script books.

Yes, she would. Just as if you were an artist, I'd want you to retain control of your work and get paid for it if there was a market.

When I find the right person, the right place, it will be given freely.

But I forget. This is, after all, just a deep space franchise...

Your logic is faulty. All of your quotes pertain to saving art from total destruction which really has nothing to do with the scripts being public domain, now, does it. Just because JMS and Fiona Avery allowed their work to be read for free for a while doesn't mean that they should also give up the right to sell it, too.

But I *really* don't want to reopen the old copyright debate again. All I wanted to do was correct an accidentally misused term that has a legal connotation.

Jan