Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[Jan]

Actually I think the point was that all news is biased because objective journalism is something of an oxymoron. It might also be worth remembering that JMS used to be a journalist himself, so it's not pure fantasy. As a matter of fact whenever I see any news report that agrees a little too much with my preconceptions, I remember this episode and remind myself that just because I've seen something in the telly, doesn't mean it's the truth.

Very well put. One of the things that B5 is about, is process. We've been shown from the beginning, not just what happens, but how it came to be that way. Most important of these is the situation on Earth and how it went from a democratic society to a repressive dictatorship. This episode is one of the ways it drives home to those viewers who thought that it could never really happen, just how easy it would be, no, how easy it is, to manipulate public thought.

Sure, it hits you over the head with it but I think it's a great example to show people how important critical viewing should be.

Plus I think you'll find the nature of the truth is one of the major themes of the show as a whole.

Indeed. In very deed.

Jan

 

[tomalak301]

I understand what the writers were getting at, how a government ran news network is really just a propaganda machine, but we knew about that all the way in the third season.

Actually I think the point was that all news is biased because objective journalism is something of an oxymoron. It might also be worth remembering that JMS used to be a journalist himself, so it's not pure fantasy. As a matter of fact whenever I see any news report that agrees a little too much with my preconceptions, I remember this episode and remind myself that just because I've seen something in the telly, doesn't mean it's the truth.
Plus I think you'll find the nature of the truth is one of the major themes of the show as a whole.

I read the lurker guide and JMS said this episode was supposed to show the difference between biased news and propaganda. I guess it did that, but my problem was really two fold, they took half the episode on the news broadcast, and I'm not sure Sheridan would have let them do it in the first place. Even with that, what did he have to lose. Earthgov hates him, so it wouldn't have made a difference.

As for the nature of truth, I know.

 

[neozeks]

Well to be fair, the Shadow war began mid way though Season 3, right up until "Into the Fire" and by the end of it, who knows how many planets were destroyed, whole races were wiped out, untold billions were killed and the galaxy was changed forever. If that's not a big thing then I don't know what is!
The problem with how it was done was that because we only saw a minuscule percentage of what was a galaxy wide conflict so you never really got a grasp of the scale of what was going on out there, but that's the nature of the show. It's Babylon 5 and everything that happens has to be shown from the perspective of the station and the people on it.He wanted to break the cycle and make sure that it stayed broken.

Yeah, I understand that. I liked, for example, when Vorlons started their rampage and we had those background Ivanova broadcasts about humanitarian aid and where to go for relief and such. It built a nice atmosphere. I just wish we had more of that. And that B5 itself was more in the war. This way it was mostly a distant HQ position and not in the middle of things.

As for Lorien and Sheridan's speech; of course the Vorlons and the Shadows understood him, though the point wasn't to make them understand where they'd gone wrong (I'm sure they were perfectly aware already) the point, from Lorien's perspective was to make sure the younger races understood. Once they understood then the guardians had no hold on them. At which point Lorien tells them it's time to step aside and leave. Sure, Lorien could have just swept in right from the get go, told them all to pack up and leave with him and that would be that. He probably could have don that millenia ago, but in a few short eaons, the younger races, left to their own devices would evolve and probably make all the same mistakes the others did.

Ah, but here we could go into was it really moral to let billions die and suffer so a lesson could be learned... or was it learned? Eons is a long time to forget...
And with this:

He wanted to break the cycle and make sure that it stayed broken.

I'm having a strong nuBSG deja vu moment.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Tomalak, I agree with you. I hated "Illusion of Truth" as well... About as subtle as a hammer to the head, about a topic which is obvious. Nothing like "And Now For a Word", which was awesome.

Fortunately that was the last episode of its kind.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, I understand that. I liked, for example, when Vorlons started their rampage and we had those background Ivanova broadcasts about humanitarian aid and where to go for relief and such. It built a nice atmosphere. I just wish we had more of that. And that B5 itself was more in the war. This way it was mostly a distant HQ position and not in the middle of things.

If the station had been in the middle of things, it wouldn't be for very long as I don't think even the Great Machine would be able to fend off an all out assault by either side. The very reason why B5 was the centre of organising the war was precisely because it was intentionally left alone.

Ah, but here we could go into was it really moral to let billions die and suffer so a lesson could be learned... or was it learned? Eons is a long time to forget...

I really can't answer that fully without getting into spoilers, so I'll just say that at no point did Lorien claim moral superiority (or any morality at all) and to a being that has lived for literally billions of years, has seen stars grow old and uncounted trillions of beings, whole races go to dust, a million years isn't a huge span of time and a lesson at the cost of a few billion lives is worth it if it means the younger races have a better chance at avoiding repeating the mistakes of the guardians. Also, from his perspective what might happen in a million years is a very real and immediate concern.
Not that he didn't care, quite the opposite, just watch his reaction when he first hears the Vorlons have brought out the planet killers.

Sure, it hits you over the head with it but I think it's a great example to show people how important critical viewing should be.

I think a part of the bluntness may be down to the fact that it's also an object lesson in context. If it was just about ISN making up propaganda then there's be no point, but everything in that report was "real". There are secret freezers full of unknown human bodies, there are Minbari in authority on the station, there were alien warships being refitted outside and humans are living in squalid conditions on the station. Every thing that the characters were heard to say in the report was said by them, everything that they were seen doing they did and yet it was all falsehoods. Context matters.
I'm often put in mind of that when I see a brief 10 second soundbyte on the news that's clearly taken from a much longer interview or statement, I wonder what the original context might have been.
Hell, with the right context, Palin's notirious rambling "speach" could have been edited into something approaching coherance. Somebody clearly wasn't interested in doing her any favours.

 

[Mr Light]

How sweet would it have been if the huge final battle of the Shadow War took place at B5 with the Great Machine blasting away at the Vorlon and Shadow fleets trying to protect the station while they made their final stand?

 

[Hyperspace05]

Sweet perhaps, but also contrived and conventional. IMO.

 

[tomalak301]

How sweet would it have been if the huge final battle of the Shadow War took place at B5 with the Great Machine blasting away at the Vorlon and Shadow fleets trying to protect the station while they made their final stand?

You know, if there was one thing I didn't like about the conclusion of the Shadow war it was Draal was never really a factor. Here is this guy who has so much power, sworn an allegiance to the army of light, and he wasn't even used. It's like that entire storyline was forgotten down the stretch.

 

[Harvey]

That's a part of it. But, also, the actor was never available. Schuck is great, but casting him turned into a mixed blessing because of his lack of availability.

 

[tomalak301]

Atonement

Speaking of "In the Beginning"

It's interesting how episodes seem to match what we are talking about in interesting ways. One day it's about Austin Powers (Adira and Last Delivery to Avalon), and the next it's Atonement (The beginning of the Earth/Minbari War). I liked this episode. It was good backstory on Delenn and the Minbari, and I liked the use of flashbacks. Interesting revelations that Delenn was the one who started the war, and in a sense the one who ended the war as well. It her was who said that the prophecy said souls were merging from Minbari to Human. Evidently more than just souls were merging and we know that since Sinclair turned into Valen.

Also loved the final scene with Marcus singing and Franklin becoming all pissed off. Nice use of the credits too.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

I think that's the point. This episode is supposed to anger you. The reactions of Sheridan, Ivanova and Delenn are the same one you're feeling.

We're supposed to be angered at the Vorlons and the Shadows, not at the episode itself. That's silly. What always undermines Into the Fire for me is that I don't buy that the Shadows/Vorlons are so quickly concerned by the fact that a couple of ships willingly sacrifice themselves to protect Sheridan. Those numbers should just be a drop in the bucket for the Shadows/Vorlons. Add to that Ivanova's childish psychological trick that somehow works on one of the first ones in an earlier episode, and Sheridan's "now get the hell out of our galaxy" that punctuates the episode, an I'm just a *little* disappointed in the execution of the conflict's resolution. That's all. A few things that could have been easily tweaked.

I was talking about "The Illusion of Truth."

 

[chrisspringob]

"The Illusion of Truth" is a weird episode for me in that, I'm mildly repulsed by it, yet I thought it was good. That is, it made me feel uneasy, and I can't say that I enjoyed watching it, but on an "objective" level, I appreciate what it was doing, and thought it did it well.

 

[tomalak301]

Racing Mars

I think it's starting to feel like this season has a sense of direction again. Atonement was good in a good character study of Delenn, Illusions of Truth started the direction of the second half (I don't really want to get into that episode) and Epiphanies was a breather post war episode. The common thread from each episode was they seemed to be slowly shifting gears, but it left me wanting. That brings me to Racing Mars, where I have a feeling the rest of the season really starts taking off. On B5, Garibaldi has gone nuts, being all paranoid and something is wrong with him (Still looking forward to finding out what he was "programmed" to do). He hates Sheridan, which is a little wierd and unnerving, and now has joined up with some people to bring Sheridan down. Like I said, weird.

On Mars, that storyline was quite amusing. Marcus and Franklin married was a great laugh (Marcus' off the wall comments were great ) and we find out (being a bit over dramatic here) that the Galaxy is being taken over by parasites. There was one on Captain Jack (BTW, just an aside, I know this series came before but I liked the Torchwood reference as well as the "my side your side" reference from Farscape ) just like there was one on the Regent on Centauri Prime. Really interested to see where that goes.

Also just an aside, but I think I'm starting to get a little tired of Delenn. Her relationship with John is nice (and there are a few interesting moments) but I'm wondering if it's making her soft and a bit uninteresting. She used to be so strong and such a cool character but they seem to be writing her as just a relationship only these days. Hopefully we see a return of "Be Somewhere Else" Delenn, if only for a brief time.

 

[Jan]

Interesting revelations that Delenn was the one who started the war, and in a sense the one who ended the war as well.

Making it all the more poignant that it was she who accepted the sword/guilt from Arthur/David in 'A Late Delivery from Avalon'.

Jan

 

[tomalak301]

Interesting revelations that Delenn was the one who started the war, and in a sense the one who ended the war as well.

Making it all the more poignant that it was she who accepted the sword/guilt from Arthur/David in 'A Late Delivery from Avalon'.

Jan

So that's what you meant when you told me after that episode that the sword had some significance. I didn't even think about that.

 

[tomalak301]

Lines of Communication

Ask and you shall receive. It's very interesting that at the beginning of this episode Delenn was the one who told John "...never forget who I was, what I am, and what I can do." I was wondering when she'd wake up to that fact. She was Old Delenn in this episode. "End This..." What a great way to end a great battle sequence. These Drakh are creepy. Sounds like they want to finish what the Shadows started, as a way of vengence. Seems the show just got a new set of bad guys to deal with, Clark excluded of course. Also, I wonder if Delenn is leaving for a short time. Maybe we can get the old Sheridan back too, the one who did bring the races together and just sent out rangers on a danger mission in which they weren't coming back. Maybe this time apart will be good and really feel like the season will end strong.

As for Earth, I'm really liking Number 1. She's cute, and she takes no prisoners. Also, the war room is being turned into a news center. The scene with Ivanova and Sheridan in her quarters was great. Probably the best Ivanova moment (She seems to have been sidelined a bit lately) of the season so far.

 

[tomalak301]

Conflicts of Interest

I've got to say I don't have much for this episode. It was good, not great, but I'm not sure if there is much to say. It was nice to see Londo again, who seems to not have been there in forever. I guess I can mention Lise. Another JMS thing of bringing in what you thought of minor characters in a way to make them bigger so it was nice to see Lise again. Also, Garibaldi picking up a job offer from Edgers taking him to Mars should lead to some interesting stuff.

Other than that, good batch of episodes today, with my favorite being Lines of Communication.

 

[Mr Light]

"Racing Mars" was the first B5 episode I'd ever seen. While it was an interesting show, I was pretty pissed to learn that I missed all the good stuff by only four episodes! I agree that Delenn and Sheridan got way too cutesy in these middle-season episodes. And of course Marcus is a gem and one of my favorite characters.

That's a part of it. But, also, the actor was never available.

They used the Great Machine in WWE without him appearing. All you need to say is "we're on the phone with Draal he's activating his weapons systems" and then watch the pretty fireworks

 

[tomalak301]

Rumors, Bargains & Lies

This episode was brilliant. Might be one of the best comedy episodes B5 has ever done. Loved manipulative Sheridan, and the Drazi ambassador's reactions to everything was absolutely priceless. Hell, all the reactions in that storyline were absolutely priceless, including the scene where Londo can't believe he has to deny the white star ships bordering Centauri Prime. After the meeting in the council chamber I was so rooting for a reaction from Sheridan and that "Woohoo" was absolutely hilarious.

On the Minbari side, an alliance between Neroon and Delenn? Who knows (Based on the last scene it's still very uncertain if there is still the alliance but it's making the Minbari civil war plot more interesting. I was very glad to see Neroon again. As for Lennier, he said his relationship to Delenn was very different than just "love". I think we're starting to understand why.

By far, my favorite episode of the season so far.

 

[tomalak301]

Moments of Transition

Last two episodes have been John Sheridan's best episodes in a long long time. I knew a seperation of him and Delenn would really work wonders because I was tired of the lovey dovy stuff. These last few episodes have been awesome and I loved Sheridan's tirade at the end. It's kind of wierd that all this has happened in a span of only a few episodes because it's almost making the Shadow War a distant memory.

So Bester is involved with what is happened to Garibaldi for some reason and Lyta rejoined the Psi-Corps as a secret agent. I'm glad they are moving forward with the Garibladi mystery because I didn't want to feel like they were stalling.

On Minbar, I'm actually a bit sad Neroon bit the bullet. It was a great way to go out though, in the ring of fire proclaiming religious caste. Also, I've been wondering what happened to the Worker caste, and it was a nice touch giving them 5 positions on the council. The fire sequence was still a great sequence though.

Still that ending with the death of 10,000 civilians was shocking but it sets the season in motion coming down the stretch. With 8 episodes to go it was finally time to go somewhere.