Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[Chekov's Phaser]

I really like the Gospel song being woven into the Refa scene. It was season 3 where they started doing different things. Maybe in season 1 or 2, that scene would have just been played straight, but in season 3 that made it more interesting and, dare I say, artsy.

Pity. You'll be missing a thought-provoking story and a great new character at the very least.

Jan

Agreed. Just finished watching "Sleeping in Light" last night, and now that my tears have finally stopped, I'm rewatching "The Lost Tales". I actually enjoy it, and I wish they'd make more. I'd tell the OP to watch it, and even if he doesn't like it, it's not like it lasts long.

Look, I agree with you (both). I have seen The Lost Tales several times - and each time, I enjoyed it more and more. Each time I found some subtle wrinkle of meaning tucked within the admittedly thin plot-line.

The same is true for Grey 17. But...

But my question is, you and I are not "normal." Grey 17 is one of the lowest ranked of the B5 episodes (it's 6.93 on the P5 scale). Shouldn't JMS have gone for the broadest possible B5 constituency for his first installment of The Lost Tales, so that at least there was some chance it would take off? Then, if it met with success, JMS could surely sneak in his seraphim plot-line in a latter installment?

It just seems like it was a really bad call. And now, as a result, there probably will never be any more Lost Tales.

I agree with you that the story itself isn't the most easily accessible to anyone other than the fans, but I wonder who was going to buy "Lost Tales" other than the fans? "The Lost Tales"was already hampered with a very small budget, and I'm not sure that a more broadly appealing story could have been done on such a shoe string budget. I just don't know if the story itself, or just bad timing or advertising, is the main culprit.

 

[tomalak301]

Shadow Dancing

What an ending. Delenn's vision came true, at least the one from War Without End. Anna Sheridan is alive or was this a trick mainly because the Shadow ship released that pod. I have a feeling I'm about to find out, but if Delenn's vision came true, than that might mean the other visions in War Without End, especially the one with John on Centauri Prime, might come true as well. Another instence of foreshadowing that we find the results to.

Other parts of the episode I liked was the battle with the Shadows. Is it me or are Babylon 5 battle sequences more realistic than Star Trek battles. What I mean is in Star Trek (And this has aways been a pet peeve of mine), the battles always seemed 2 demensional. You fire, than the other ships fire, and it's a straight line. They improved things with the Defiant, but most Trek ships couldn't go up or down. What I like about these battle sequences is it makes space (The playing field) a whole lot bigger.

As for Franklin's Walkabout, I'm kind of glad that storyline is over. Even though it seemed a bit heavy handed (Finding out who you are with your dying breath, how convienent) but it was still effective. Still, the Walkabout gave us a great singer and two very good songs this season so it must not all be bad.

 

[tomalak301]

Z'ha'dum

Wow. They seem to up themselves with every finale. I actually don't have the words to express what I just saw because it's still trying to sink in. So just making sure I understand this, the Shadows believe evolution comes with conflict and violence. It's kind of like the big school bully in the yard who won't leave you alone. It was actually a little scary getting the Shadow side of the story. Then Sheridan takes the leap of faith, the White Star comes in guns blazing and going off. Also, what happened to Garibaldi and just I can't wait to see what happens next.

Now, an overall review.

Damn that was an awesome season of television. We went from the shock of seeing what Kosh looked like (Or did we, since the Shadows said the Vorlons have a way to manipulate people) to learning how to defeat the shadow ships, breaking away from earth, and ending it with Sheridan taking a leap of faith, Z'Ha'Dum going up in a blaze of glory, and Garibaldi being inside a shadow vessel. There were so many developments, so many revelations, and so many growths to character that to talk about it all would almost be a thesis in it's own right. Let's just say that watching this novel grow, develop, and get deeper and deeper is quite an experience.

I said after Season 2 that I don't consider it better than season one, but only a continuation to a novel. Well, Season three was a continuation, but it was better than the previous two seasons combined. Every single character got a chance to shine this season, and I love all of these characters. Heck, if you asked me what a weaklink to this cast would be, I don't think I have an answer. They are all so good and it was a pleasure to watch these characters develop over the course of the season. From Sheridan really getting into forming alliences to the army of light, to the growing relationship with he and Delenn, and then the rest just all did great this season.

It's hard to do a Top 5 and bottom three this season, so I'm going to do a top 10 and bottom three this season.

Top 10 (In order)

Severed Dreams
War Without End
Z'ha'dum
Interludes and Examinations
Point of No Return
Messages from Earth
And the Rock Cried out, No Hiding Place
Ship of Tears
Voices of Authority
Dust to Dust

Bottom 3 (In order)

Grey 17 is Missing
Convictions
A Day in the Strife

 

[CorporalClegg]

First time I saw Z'ha'dum I was pretty much in tears.

What powerful ending.

 

[Chekov's Phaser]

And G'Kar's speech at the end still brings shivers up my spine. JMS said he thinks it's probably the most quoted B5 line on the internet. It's definitely my favorite as is this episode. Kosh telling Sheridan to jump made me jump out of my chair the first time I saw it.

And just to make JMS right:

"It was the end of the Earth year 2260, and the war had paused, suddenly and unexpectedly. All around us, it was as if the universe were holding its breath, waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments .. of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quon wrote: There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope. The death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."

 

[tomalak301]

The Hour of the Wolf

I'm really conflicted on this one. Maybe I should have waited a day between watching the final 3 episodes of Season 3, which were heavy and really well done, and then watching this episode, which while well done it just had an entirely different tone. I did like it though even though I think it's the weakest of the premieres. I liked how much of Sheridan's loss was such a downer for pretty much everyone, from the worlds leaving, to Delenn fasting, to Ivanova nearly hitting rock bottom. It was nice seeing John at the end though, even though given Boxleitner is still in the cast, he is definitely coming back. Looking forward to seeing how that bearded figure is from the end.

As for Londo, I actually got a little psyched when we saw the Shadows coming down to Centauri Prime. It almost does seem like in this show you don't write your own future. It's pretty much foretold and no matter what the circumstances are, it will happen. The emporer is a total duche though.

 

[tomalak301]

First time I saw Z'ha'dum I was pretty much in tears.

What powerful ending.

And G'Kar's speech at the end still brings shivers up my spine. JMS said he thinks it's probably the most quoted B5 line on the internet. It's definitely my favorite as is this episode. Kosh telling Sheridan to jump made me jump out of my chair the first time I saw it.

And just to make JMS right:

"It was the end of the Earth year 2260, and the war had paused, suddenly and unexpectedly. All around us, it was as if the universe were holding its breath, waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments .. of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quon wrote: There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope. The death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."

I wasn't in tears, but it was a very powerful ending. From this episode to even the next episode, G'Kar has a narrator writing his memoirs has been very nice.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

My jaw was on the freaking floor at the end of Z'ha'dum. Thank god I was watching it on DVD and only had to pop in the next disc. I can't imagine having to wait all summer for resolution to that one.

 

[Trubinator]

The Hour of the Wolf

I'm really conflicted on this one. Maybe I should have waited a day between watching the final 3 episodes of Season 3, which were heavy and really well done, and then watching this episode, which while well done it just had an entirely different tone. I did like it though even though I think it's the weakest of the premieres. I liked how much of Sheridan's loss was such a downer for pretty much everyone, from the worlds leaving, to Delenn fasting, to Ivanova nearly hitting rock bottom. It was nice seeing John at the end though, even though given Boxleitner is still in the cast, he is definitely coming back. Looking forward to seeing how that bearded figure is from the end.

As for Londo, I actually got a little psyched when we saw the Shadows coming down to Centauri Prime. It almost does seem like in this show you don't write your own future. It's pretty much foretold and no matter what the circumstances are, it will happen. The emporer is a total duche though.

Season four as a whole though is even stronger than three. You don't be disappointed.

 

[chrisspringob]

My jaw was on the freaking floor at the end of Z'ha'dum. Thank god I was watching it on DVD and only had to pop in the next disc. I can't imagine having to wait all summer for resolution to that one.

During the initial broadcast of the series in the US, the final episodes of Season 3 were delayed until September / October, so "The Hour of the Wolf" actually aired just one week after "Z'ha'dum". In fact the final eps of Season 3 ended up airing about a month earlier in the UK than they did in the US.

 

[Jan]

During the initial broadcast of the series in the US, the final episodes of Season 3 were delayed until September / October, so "The Hour of the Wolf" actually aired just one week after "Z'ha'dum". In fact the final eps of Season 3 ended up airing about a month earlier in the UK than they did in the US.

That's the one time the screwy PTEN schedule was a mercy. The torture was having to wait from May to August between "War Without End Part 2" and "Walkabout".

Jan

 

[Reverend]

I guess he reminds me now a bit like Dukat from DS9. He's an opportunist, trying to rise to power, but just the fact that he was willing to trust G'Kar makes me wonder if this is a trip towards redemption or if he just was figured the time was right.

They're nothing alike. DS9's Dukat was the worst kind of egotist, Londo was the worst kind of patriot. I'd recommend you stop trying to draw parallels with Star Trek, there really aren't any of substance.

As for Franklin's Walkabout, I'm kind of glad that storyline is over. Even though it seemed a bit heavy handed (Finding out who you are with your dying breath, how convienent) but it was still effective.

I should probably point out that it was partly based on a real experience of JMS. Apparently the guy was mugged and beat up by a street gang in San Diego and had to crawl a block or two to find help.

That's the one time the screwy PTEN schedule was a mercy. The torture was having to wait from May to August between "War Without End Part 2" and "Walkabout".

Jan

I recall there was an enormous gap between the airing of season 5 and the very last 5 or so episodes, at least over here. I remember when they finally did turn up I had a hard time remembering what had happened previously.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I should probably point out that it was partly based on a real experience of JMS. Apparently the guy mugged and beat up by a street gang in San Diego and had to crawl a block or two to find help.

An experience JMS used twice in the series -- in "Shadow Dancing" and with Garabaldi crawling into the tube in "Chrysalis."

 

[Mr Light]

"Shadow Dancing" is one of my top favorite episodes. I love me a good space battle. "Z'ha'dum" for me was another hollow experience because I had already read the events beforehand, so learning who the Shadows were and what happens to Sheridan didn't do much for me. ... So Tomalak before that episode, what did you think was the Shadows' motivation? Just generic evil conquerors?

 

[CorporalClegg]

My jaw was on the freaking floor at the end of Z'ha'dum. Thank god I was watching it on DVD and only had to pop in the next disc. I can't imagine having to wait all summer for resolution to that one.

It's funny. I've never hid my dislike for "Best of Both Worlds" and am often baffled by how much it is revered around here with people making statements like "The finest hour of television ever..." "Such a brilliant cliffhanger," "An emotional roller coaster," et cetera.

But when compared to something like Z'Ha'Dum, I just don't see how anyone could suggest it compares. But that's just me.

 

[Forbin]

And the Rock Cried out, No Hiding Place

I was visiting my parents when that aired once, and they watched it with me. Their jaws hung open for Refa's comeuppance. Afterward they looked at me like i was nuts and said "That was BRUTAL!"

I told 'em it was okay, he had it coming.

And G'Kar's speech at the end still brings shivers up my spine. JMS said he thinks it's probably the most quoted B5 line on the internet. It's definitely my favorite as is this episode. Kosh telling Sheridan to jump made me jump out of my chair the first time I saw it.

And just to make JMS right:

"It was the end of the Earth year 2260, and the war had paused, suddenly and unexpectedly. All around us, it was as if the universe were holding its breath, waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments .. of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quon wrote: There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope. The death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."

You bastich, now I'm all choked up in my cubicle.

 

[Mal]

My jaw was on the freaking floor at the end of Z'ha'dum. Thank god I was watching it on DVD and only had to pop in the next disc. I can't imagine having to wait all summer for resolution to that one.

It's funny. I've never hid my dislike for "Best of Both Worlds" and am often baffled by how much it is revered around here with people making statements like "The finest hour of television ever..." "Such a brilliant cliffhanger," "An emotional roller coaster," et cetera.

But when compared to something like Z'Ha'Dum, I just don't see how anyone could suggest it compares. But that's just me.

dude, context matters. i don't know about you, but when Best of Both Worlds aired back in 1990 (yes kids: 19 years ago!!!!), it was the very first cliff-hanger i had ever seen. i'd wager that's true of many people on this board.

and what a cliff-hanger it was. "Mr. Worf, fire."

fuck.

Z'ha'dum aired 6 years later. that's a looong time in tv-years. granted it may have technically been a better episode, but it was evolutionary. BoBW was revolutionary!

 

[DarkHorizon]

That's the one time the screwy PTEN schedule was a mercy. The torture was having to wait from May to August between "War Without End Part 2" and "Walkabout".

Jan

I recall there was an enormous gap between the airing of season 5 and the very last 5 or so episodes, at least over here. I remember when they finally did turn up I had a hard time remembering what had happened previously.

Yeah, it was, IIRC, August to December, because TNT held back the last part of that season till November, and wouldn't allow the masters to be sent overseas until they'd shown them, or something like that...

And then we got them shown mid-morning on The Bigger Breakfast, festooned with all their on-air DOGs...

 

[Auralis]

dude, context matters. i don't know about you, but when Best of Both Worlds aired back in 1990 (yes kids: 19 years ago!!!!), it was the very first cliff-hanger i had ever seen. i'd wager that's true of many people on this board.

and what a cliff-hanger it was. "Mr. Worf, fire."

fuck.

Z'ha'dum aired 6 years later. that's a looong time in tv-years. granted it may have technically been a better episode, but it was evolutionary. BoBW was revolutionary!

Umm, Doctor Who, the classics, used cliffhnager in every episode except the final episode of a story, since 1963.
BobW was hardly revolutionary, just another evolution

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
And it had been used pretty extensively since the late 70s. It was a pretty old hat, even by 1990.