Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?

[DarkHorizon]

I doubt it was a "sibling rivalry" thing, but that's still an original premise. Kudos for thinking of it, especially given what you've posted right before this. All of those things the Sheridan is connected to. In any case, I'm betting that Lyta is succumbing to the sense of superiority complex the Vorlons seemed to have so much trouble with. Now, whether this incident at Z'ha'dum occurs before the events in "Thirdspace" I cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not know, so cannot say.

I'm pretty sure it does, since the prologue and the opening sequence of Thirdspace relate to the EarthGov "quarantine", which is only established during the events of "Epiphanies".

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

In the middle of watching Season 5 now, after having only just finished the series for the first time ever.

S5 just feels flat to me. The opening episode of the season is downright terrible. Hey, I like the actor playing Delenn but seeing that shocked expression for the 50th time is getting a bit old.

The second ep wasn't much better. As things go on, Byron is just irritating me - I just got to the part where his past comes into focus, and it was not only entirely predictable but cliched and unbelievable. Also, by now i'm thoroughly sick of Bester and I think it's long past time he died.

I'm still slowly working my way through it but based on the comments I read here i'm going to shortly wish I hadn't.

Join the club!

The very last couple of episodes, maybe the last 5 or so, are pretty good, but even those have the stench/feel of the "new" season 5 all over them, it becomes difficult to think of them as being really great. It's just too little too late.

 

[Harvey]

I'd say your spot on about Byron not being meant to be sympathetic. He was, as Zach said, a martyr looking for some place to happen.

The problem isn't that his character isn't sympathetic. It's that Byron isn't charismatic. We're repeatedly told that he is, but when we see Byron, as he's written and acted, he exerts very little charisma. A cult leader has to be able to capture his audience with something. Byron doesn't have charisma, nor does he have workable ideas. So why then, do people flock to him?

Another point. It always disappointed me that the rogue telepaths from the second season weren't part of the Byron arc. It's a shame they were so easily forgotten--they might have added some familiar and diverse faces to Byron's boring crowd of N.D. performers.

 

[Neroon]

Speaking of being 'touched by the Vorlons', did anybody else equate black-eyed Lyta with possibly also being 'touched by the Shadows'? As I recall, the first time we saw that was when she was at Z'ha'dum. I always wondered about that a little but don't recall anything ever being said onscreen or by JMS.

Jan

The Shadows and Vorlons are inexorably linked. We see it in their ongoing ideological battle. But I'm not sure if Lyta has been "touched by the Shadows" in that same way she was by the Vorlons. We saw her eyes go black like that whenever she was deep in the thrall of a telepathic event. Sometimes the Shadows were near by, yet others they weren't. Perhaps in some the techniques employed by the Vorlons were original developed by the Shadows? After all, Delenn herself claims that the Shadows are the oldest of the First Ones, I believe. Where it gets confusing is in "Into the Fire" when the Vorlons communicate through Lyta... her eyes turn green and glowing. Then later in S5 when she's "testing" her powers and waks Garibaldi up, her eyes are green there as well. Most other times they are black, so that is the predominant effect.

 

[JoeD80]

Those two seemed to drop the ball with the telepaths more than anyone else.

A character flaw that Sheridan was meant to have -- he could only see telepaths as weapons, the same as Psi Corps. It's the reason he is wearing the uniform of the Psi Cop in his vision in the season 2 episode "All Alone in the Night" according to the commentary in the script book.

 

[Mr Light]

As I recall, Lyta's eyes only went black when she using her powers on something Shadow-related, be it Z'ha'dum, Shadow Vessels, or the Shadow Teeps. Otherwise, they glowed white/green. I may be wrong.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Those two seemed to drop the ball with the telepaths more than anyone else.

A character flaw that Sheridan was meant to have -- he could only see telepaths as weapons, the same as Psi Corps. It's the reason he is wearing the uniform of the Psi Cop in his vision in the season 2 episode "All Alone in the Night" according to the commentary in the script book.

Well, at least he tried to overcome this. There's this nice scence in one of the Season 5 episodes where Lyta did an important job for Sheridan and the alliance. At the end, Sheridan is simply about to leave the room just everybody else, but then he turns around and thanks her. This was after Lyta had accused him of using her as a mere tool all the time without even receving any gratitude.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I'd say your spot on about Byron not being meant to be sympathetic. He was, as Zach said, a martyr looking for some place to happen.

The problem isn't that his character isn't sympathetic. It's that Byron isn't charismatic. We're repeatedly told that he is, but when we see Byron, as he's written and acted, he exerts very little charisma. A cult leader has to be able to capture his audience with something. Byron doesn't have charisma, nor does he have workable ideas. So why then, do people flock to him?

Another point. It always disappointed me that the rogue telepaths from the second season weren't part of the Byron arc. It's a shame they were so easily forgotten--they might have added some familiar and diverse faces to Byron's boring crowd of N.D. performers.

The lack of charisma is certainly another factor and that I'd put down to the actor himself, all hair and no style.

On a seperate point, I think Lyta's eyecolor depended om what she was doing. If she was trying to affect others (operating offensively if you will) her eyes would be black. If she was accessing Vorlon memories or just reving her powers up her eyes would be green. I don't recall all the uses of her powers, so I am not entirely sure if this holds up.

 

[Jan]

The lack of charisma is certainly another factor and that I'd put down to the actor himself, all hair and no style.

One thing that I noticed when I was doing the Joe Cuts was that a number of scenes of Byron communing with his people were cut. I think if maybe there'd been more of those scenes people might have accepted his leadership abilities more. Remember, too, that much of what was the basis for the teep colony was the cult that JMS was in when he was in his 20s so that might account for some of the creepiness factor.

Why is it everybody picks on Byron's hair, though?? I mean, Brown Sector was habitable enough for the colony to live so there was obviously plumbing. We know that only high ranking crew (and probably luxury transient quarters) on B5 got actual water showers and the rest got vibe showers so why wouldn't the teeps and Byron be able to keep clean even without a lot of money? Who knows, maybe there was even a negative ion setting that took the place of hair conditioner.

 

[Bluejay]

On a seperate point, I think Lyta's eyecolor depended om what she was doing. If she was trying to affect others (operating offensively if you will) her eyes would be black. If she was accessing Vorlon memories or just reving her powers up her eyes would be green. I don't recall all the uses of her powers, so I am not entirely sure if this holds up.

The times when her eyes went black (from what I can recall) :

* the first time Sheridan tested the theory of telepathic disruption on the Shadow ships

* waking up the human telepaths smuggled onto the EA ships

* acting as the voice of the Shadows

* delving into Garibaldi's mind to seek the truth in S4

In all of these instances, Shadow involvement was evident. So it seems that if they had a finger in the pie, her eyes would reflect that.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The lack of charisma is certainly another factor and that I'd put down to the actor himself, all hair and no style.

One thing that I noticed when I was doing the Joe Cuts was that a number of scenes of Byron communing with his people were cut. I think if maybe there'd been more of those scenes people might have accepted his leadership abilities more. Remember, too, that much of what was the basis for the teep colony was the cult that JMS was in when he was in his 20s so that might account for some of the creepiness factor.

Why is it everybody picks on Byron's hair, though?? I mean, Brown Sector was habitable enough for the colony to live so there was obviously plumbing. We know that only high ranking crew (and probably luxury transient quarters) on B5 got actual water showers and the rest got vibe showers so why wouldn't the teeps and Byron be able to keep clean even without a lot of money? Who knows, maybe there was even a negative ion setting that took the place of hair conditioner.

The hair is the last straw in a heavy handed characterization. He is, like his name, a byronic hero. This list taken from wiki:

high level of intelligence and perception
cunning and able to adapt
sophisticated and educated
self-critical and introspective
mysterious, magnetic and charismatic
struggling with integrity
power of seduction and sexual attraction
social and sexual dominance
emotional conflicts, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness
a distaste for social institutions and norms
being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
"dark" attributes not normally associated with a hero
disrespect of rank and privilege
a troubled past
cynicism
arrogance
self-destructive behavior

He fits the list to a tee, and just annoys the same way TOS's "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" Byron is too set up as the tragic martyr. I was longing for someone, anyone to take the clown out. I get it, bad things happened to Telepaths, heck he even helped do it, but he and the telepaths aren't the only ones suffering. Being aware of that as an audience member, his pleas and later Lyta's come off as whining pity parties. The hair just makes him look like a Fabio cover boy, which coupled with the character purpose makes him a ripe subject for ridicule.

 

[Neroon]

Oh you're just jealous because he doesn't have to use Clairol Herbal Essence.

 

[Jan]

I get it, bad things happened to Telepaths, heck he even helped do it, but he and the telepaths aren't the only ones suffering. Being aware of that as an audience member, his pleas and later Lyta's come off as whining pity parties. The hair just makes him look like a Fabio cover boy, which coupled with the character purpose makes him a ripe subject for ridicule.

I often hear " _FITB__ aren't the only ones suffering" line and I confess I don't get it. I mean, just because there are people worse off, does that mean that the teeps didn't deserve sympathy or help?

The thing with Byron is that he'd developed a coping mechanism by convincing himself that the discrimination that he and his people endured was because they were more highly evolved than the mindanes so when he discovered that his race was created to be cannon fodder his oh-so-careful rationalizations were kicked out from under him and he lost it.

Jan

 

[DarKush]

I liked Season 5. It wasn't as intense as Season 4, but I thought Lockley fit in pretty well (really liked how she was on Clark's side during the civil war), I loved the Centauri War and Londo's fateful decision, Lennier's betrayal was shocking. I enjoyed most of the other shows.

The biggest disappointment was the "Telepath War". From what I read at the time I assumed it was going to be a major storyline, and it sort of just fizzled out. I also wished the Centauri War had gotten a couple more episodes.

I wasn't much of a fan of Byron, but from what I recall I can't say I detested him. I thought that storyline was largely wasted, and would've rather seen Garibaldi take on Bester and Psi-Corps instead.

 

[Harvey]

Why is it everybody picks on Byron's hair, though?? I mean, Brown Sector was habitable enough for the colony to live so there was obviously plumbing.

Down Below was always depicted as a barely habitable slum as per my recollection. Previous to Byron, all of the characters that came out of there looked like they lived in a dirty, impoverished place.

 

[Mr Light]

JMS was in a cult in his twenties?!?! I've never heard this before! What's the story?

 

[Jan]

JMS was in a cult in his twenties?!?! I've never heard this before! What's the story?

He'd mentioned it in his Afterword to 'Midnight Nation' and wrote a little more about it in the script books. In the '70s he got involved with a group on the fringes of the Jesus movement and lived in their commune. He left/was forced out after discovering improprieties by one of the Elders and being punished for his discovery.

Jan

 

[Jan]

Down Below was always depicted as a barely habitable slum as per my recollection. Previous to Byron, all of the characters that came out of there looked like they lived in a dirty, impoverished place.

As I recall, while Brown Sector includes DownBelow, not all of it is classified as DownBelow since it also houses the Life Support and recycling areas and (I believe) some industrial work. I always thought of is as a less desireable area but not entirely a slum.

Jan

 

[Mr Light]

I never read Midnight Nation, was it any good? It's non-superhero/spandex, right?

 

[Jan]

I never read Midnight Nation, was it any good? It's non-superhero/spandex, right?

Yes. It's got a bit of a supernatural twist in that the main character's soul is stolen and he has to find it. It's a very powerful story.

Jan