Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?

[Mal]

What happened to the Keeper Londo placed in the jar for David Sheridan? What happened between Garibaldi and Bester? What happened during the telepath war? If Lyta and Lennier were killed, then when, where, how, and why did it happen? What happened to Ivonova after she left Babylon 5 to become a starship Captain? What happened during the Drakh War?

What about Earth, and Mars and the Colonies? Do Proxima and Io stay independant? How is the truth and reconciliation going for Earth? (fuck, other than some very stupid Lockley/Garibaldi "fights", there was no real tension even on B5!). And Mars - it's not till the end of the season that we hear how badly things are going. Wouldn't they (Number One) try and contact Sheridan (or Garibaldi or Franklin) for help?

And Lise - she's virtually unheard of until 2/3rds the way through. Didn't Garibaldi consult her before taking the job as head of covert intelligence? If he didn't, wouldn't she call and ask him wtf is up once she found out?

 

[RandyS]

Were people immediately put off by Byron?

I sure as hell was. As a disabled man, I understood, and to a point, sympathized with him. But shit, this moron made me want to jump through the TV and beat the hell out of him. Always running around whining about what a bad deal life gave him. I hate people like that.

And I REALLY hated how the show got rid of it's far more likable long haired englishman, Marcus.

 

[Harvey]

And Lise - she's virtually unheard of until 2/3rds the way through. Didn't Garibaldi consult her before taking the job as head of covert intelligence? If he didn't, wouldn't she call and ask him wtf is up once she found out?

At least that is reasonably explained. Garibaldi left, got caught up in the chaos that is Babylon 5, and Lise was left behind in the shuffle. She says as much when she returns to the station.

 

[Thrall]

Susan-lite? Never in a million years. Ivanova was a shouter, Lochley (CH, people, not CK) was a thinker. Totally different characters.

In other words, one has a personality and another does not.

As for her fighting for Clark, all we know about her actions is that she didn't join the rebellion. That doesn't mean she was a collaborator who actively helped to further Clark's reign of terror.

Doesn't matter. She knew what was going on. When all those things she swore an oath to protect were trampled on, where was she? She allowed Clark to do it, either through fighting on his side(which was implied) or staying neutral. Either way it's treason and cowardice. She claimed the reason she didn't join up was because she was worried about getting her men killed. They're soldiers. It's their job to get killed. It's almost as pathetic an excuse as "I was just following orders.". She betrayed her oath, she betrayed her duty, and she betrayed the people of Earth.

If Earthgov had put everybody in front of a firing squad for simply not actively rebelling, they'd've been awfully short of officers and politicians after the smoke cleared. She didn't portray that as anything other than trying to protect her people and if you can find where JMS said anything about that being noble I'd like to see that post. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a valid choice.

Jan

Maybe not a firing squad. Ok, sure. But a court martial and discharge is at least warranted. Not being given command of one of the most important installations in the universe. She was rewarded for her cowardice. She was rewarded for her connections and sort of sleeping her way to the top. She didn't earn any of it. She's a scumbag Clarkite traitor.

That nice little speech she gave Micheal where everyone gave a big round of applause to her showed how JMS was trying to show her in a sympathetic light.

 

[sidious618]

I liked Lochley quite a bit. Sure, she made some bad calls before being on B5 but I can see, if not agree, with Sheridan's thinking when it came to appointing her.

 

[Pilot Ace]

She claimed the reason she didn't join up was because she was worried about getting her men killed. They're soldiers. It's their job to get killed. It's almost as pathetic an excuse as "I was just following orders."

What? Are you serious?

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

She claimed the reason she didn't join up was because she was worried about getting her men killed. They're soldiers. It's their job to get killed. It's almost as pathetic an excuse as "I was just following orders."

What? Are you serious?

I would claim that it is one of Lochley's obligation as commanding officer to keep as many of their subordinates alive as possible. This is also how she saw it.

I guess Sheridan agrees with this. But he would also argue that the removal of President Clark from power has ultimately a higher prioriaty and justifies to risk the lifes of those under his command.

But neither Sheridan nor Lochley would see their subordinates as expendable cannon-fodder. And they weren't good officers if they would.

 

[Jan]

Doesn't matter. She knew what was going on. When all those things she swore an oath to protect were trampled on, where was she? She allowed Clark to do it, either through fighting on his side(which was implied) or staying neutral. Either way it's treason and cowardice. She claimed the reason she didn't join up was because she was worried about getting her men killed. They're soldiers. It's their job to get killed. It's almost as pathetic an excuse as "I was just following orders.". She betrayed her oath, she betrayed her duty, and she betrayed the people of Earth.

First of all, a soldier's job is *not* to get killed.

Second of all, exactly what was her source of knowing what was going on? She might very well have had some really heavy suspicions but not every ship had somebody like General Hague to give them real info. Can you imagine how a military tribunal would have reacted if her defense at a Court Martial was "I saw ISN attacked and 'knew' it was by Clark's forces so I went to join the forces that my chain of command told me were traitorous rebels."

Maybe not a firing squad. Ok, sure. But a court martial and discharge is at least warranted. Not being given command of one of the most important installations in the universe. She was rewarded for her cowardice. She was rewarded for her connections and sort of sleeping her way to the top. She didn't earn any of it. She's a scumbag Clarkite traitor.

I think you're forgetting that none of the commanders in charge of B5 got there because of merit. Sinclair was insisted upon by the Minbari. Sheridan was Clark's choice because Hague made sure that he looked like a jarhead who'd never think of questioning orders. And if you can call Lochley's brief relationship with Sheridan 'sleeping her way to the top' it's a piss-poor way of doing it considering that they were equal in rank right up to the moment Sheridan got elected President of the ISA.

That nice little speech she gave Micheal where everyone gave a big round of applause to her showed how JMS was trying to show her in a sympathetic light.

Perhaps. But the applause was from those men and women under her command who she'd just said she'd protect with every last breath. Methinks that those folks would much rather hear that than hearing their CO say that it was their job to get killed. Wouldn't you if you were a soldier?

Jan

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

The point I will bother to restate, however, is a big one. Season five is a lot of set-up without any pay-off. And some of that set-up is excruciating (Byron is unbelievable from the large details of performance and writing down to the small details of his curiously shampooed and conditioned hair). What happened to the Keeper Londo placed in the jar for David Sheridan? What happened between Garibaldi and Bester? What happened during the telepath war? If Lyta and Lennier were killed, then when, where, how, and why did it happen? What happened to Ivonova after she left Babylon 5 to become a starship Captain? What happened during the Drakh War?

I understand a lot of those points have received pay off in the novels, or in Crusade. I know, I own them. It's beside the point. To spend the final season with languid set-up, new characters, and a number of useless standalone hours (especially useless this late in the series' life) strikes me as structurally absurd. The best pay off in the season, Londo's story in the final arc and Sheridan's story in Sleeping in Light, keeps everything afloat. But only just.

I pretty much agree. That's the biggest problem, and as pointed out above, the part of the season that WAS paid off, is indeed the part of the season that everyone says is the best part... the Londo arc conclusion and SiL.

Byron's story was terrible, and both him and Lochley were just terribly cast. Scoggins, I don't think much of her as an actress. All I hear is this cracky voice - sounds like she has to clear her thought. Then again, though I quite like B5, I've never really held its acting up as something the show has been particularly good at. Arguing about Scoggins vs Claudia Christian as far as the better actress, is a funny argument to me since I think they are both pretty bad.

 

[stj]

Babylon 5 was supposed to have about a quarter of a million permanent residents, farmland for partial self-support, an interior train system for transport, etc. The telepath revolt fizzled out visually. The climax was a handful of people crouched over a drill on one side of a wall, while another handful of people on the other side (we assume it was the other side when the camera shifts viewpoints, at least---would it have killed them to have both sides in the same shot?) Therefore all the time spent with the telepaths went down the drain. Personally, I'm glad we didn't see the orginal plan of Byron/Ivanova.

As for Lochley, the marriage was a little far fetched, but the real problem was that the ramrod officer/martinet with a heart of gold is just a little blah for my taste.

But once the telepath arc sorted out, the rest was pretty good. I too wish we'd seen the telepath war, though.

 

[Mr Light]

That's precisely why I found the telepath storyline to be completely uninteresting. People squinting at each other is not terribly exciting. And that's why I could care less about seeing the Telepath War. He belatedly came up with a visual representation of it in "The Corps Is Mother", but I still think it doesn't do justice visually.

 

[glindros]

When all is said and done, jms was told to wrap everything up by the end of season 4. And that is exactly what he did, and pretty well.

What was the result of finishing everything in season 4? Shortnened arcs for the Shadow War, Minbari Civil War, and the Earth Alliance civil war.

All of a sudden he had to fill in a whole season worth of episodes. Several of his "shower revelations" about the B5 story were already played out in an abbreviated manner.

As jms began filling in stories for season 5 some things left many viewers flat. I still need someone to better explain the Byron arc to me. Maybe if Ivanova were still around I would have been more invested in it.


Anyway I attribute the concentration of stories and arcs in season 4 for the lack of any real "wow" in season 5. Maybe though season 4 set the bar so high, no season 5 could do it justice.

 

[Jan]

As jms began filling in stories for season 5 some things left many viewers flat. I still need someone to better explain the Byron arc to me. Maybe if Ivanova were still around I would have been more invested in it.

I think that if Ivanova, with her hatred of Bester and fear of being discovered as a latent telepath had had to call him in (assuming the same basic arc as Lochley followed) there would have been a lot more tension. On the other hand, since it was Ivanova who was supposed to be involved with Byron, that's probably not a safe assumption. One wonders how Byron would have discovered that the Vorlons interfered to create telepaths.

Anyway I attribute the concentration of stories and arcs in season 4 for the lack of any real "wow" in season 5. Maybe though season 4 set the bar so high, no season 5 could do it justice.

That's part of it but I still think the Centauri arc had plenty of 'wham' to it, especially Londo being forced to accept the Keeper as he did.

Jan

 

[Harvey]

One wonders how Byron would have discovered that the Vorlons interfered to create telepaths.

Wasn't it always the plan to have Lyta involved with the telepaths? I thought the main change happened when she was made the love interest, too, when Ivanova left.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I watched season 5 of this show after it's first run as well. In fact, I think I watched it only about 6 years ago when B5 was on the Scifi Channel in the afternoon.

I didn't have any threads like this to shape my opinion....I arrived at my conclusions pretty much in a vacuum - the vacuum of my own living room. I didn't even know about the Lurker's Guide...and I didn't post in B5 threads around here because the show was long over and I didn't want to be spoiled. However, my independent conclusion was that the first half of the season is terrible....and the second half of the season redeems the first with a marked improvement. At least IMO.

For me, the chief trouble was Byron...and everything surrounding him. Lyta was pretty much destroyed for me, for example.

I was also not too thrilled with the destruction of Lennier. And I was also just a smidgen disappointed with Londo's ending - I felt a few things were left unclear (and since Londo is my favorite character....well....)

But as I said, for the most part the second half the season redeemed the horrible start. And you have to give them a bit of leeway given that they were jerked around so much about cancelation.

 

[Jan]

Wasn't it always the plan to have Lyta involved with the telepaths? I thought the main change happened when she was made the love interest, too, when Ivanova left.

Yes, she was going to be a follower of Byron's but Ivanova was supposed to be his love interest. JMS wrote:

It's no secret that I would've had Ivanova becoming somewhat
linked to Byron romantically (she would see him as a character like
Marcus, which is why there are certain similarities, and she would take
a chance only to find it wrong this time, underlining that she'd missed
her one major opportunity thus far for a good relationship). This was
expressed to Claudia toward the last part of S4, so she knew at that
time that her latent ability would be coming out, and that she'd have a
big part in S5.
.
In this scenario, Lyta would have become a devoted follower of
Byron's, much as she has, but it would have been more love from afar:
protective, somewhat unrequited but hoping for more...so that when he
met his fate, Lyta would end up right where she is now, just by a
different road.

By the way, for those interested, I just got word from Captain Jaclyn that the TV Movie book will be available on Friday 1/30/09. As a reminder, this book will feature:

Thirdspace
The River of Souls
The Legend of the Rangers
The Lost Tales

This is the book where fans sent in their questions for JMS to answer.

Jan

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Wow. Glad that didn't happen. I loved Ivanova, and truthfully, I'd rather remember her as she was than deal with all the Byron-related stuff.

I don't know...maybe that storyline might have been better if she'd been in it. But on the surface of things, I'm glad she wasn't.

Maybe karma saved her character.

 

[Neroon]

It might have been interesting to see the effects of Ivanova's living on after Marcus' sacrifice. But... I would not have been interested in seeing that. It was rought already watchign Garibalid go through his own torture in latter S4, and to follow that up with Ivie?

 

[JoeD80]

sometimes as little as one point of "jms speaks."

I've noticed a lot of the season 5 messages that jms posted weren't transferred to the guide for some reason, so some of them you are missing, but also jms was deep into production on Crusade when Season 5 was airing so he probably didn't have as much time to comment.

Had people simply lost interest once the Shadow War and Earth Civil War were over?

No one I have shown the show to has had this reaction. They've all gone straight through to the end of season 5 enjoying all of it.

Were people immediately put off by Byron?

I'm one of those people that enjoyed Byron's character and enjoyed that arc quite a bit.

Did Lockley rub people the wrong way?

I loved the Lochley character. I never really heard any bad things about Lochley before either.

Were people pissed that B5's political structure made no sense (e.g., who was Earth's representative?

Since Lochley was there because she was called in by Sheridan personally, did Earth need to send a representative too? In one of the episodes it seems to be Lochley's job (she calls in Bester since the Earth government's policies have to be followed).

why wasn't Londo replaced when he was made prime minister?

Wasn't it becuase Londo was trying to avoid becoming Emperor as long as possible? The Regent took care of things on the planet while he was at the station.

wtf is up with G'kar being ambassador and body gaurd).

Because that's what Delenn and G'Kar decided? I don't understand what the issue is here. Londo needed a bodyguard; G'Kar is a badass. End of story.

How come ISN didn't immediately report that Sheridan had requested his ex-wife be put in charge of B5?

How do you know that ISN didn't report that? Unless you have copies of all the ISN tapes from 2262 I don't think you can make that conclusion!

So how bad was Season 5? And how soon was that known?

Season 5 is my favorite season. I didn't watch the show until the DVDs were released. Everyone I've introduced the show too since has loved season 5 as well.

If Earthgov had put everybody in front of a firing squad for simply not actively rebelling, they'd've been awfully short of officers and politicians after the smoke cleared.

Also remember that Sheridan had to ask for amnesty for his crew as condition of his resignation. Earthgov didn't support Sheridan's actions -- "you did the right thing, but in the wrong way."

But no one bothers to pull the file on Byron?

And just what records would they have checked? Byron's basically a drifter at the point he comes on to the station, and Sheridan is only thinking as a user -- "I can use these telepaths."

What happened to the Keeper Londo placed in the jar for David Sheridan?

This was paid off in season 3. I don't get why people don't draw this line. It seems like you would have to have not been paying attention during the future parts of "War Without End" to not follow this.

What happened between Garibaldi and Bester?

Pretty clear from Wheel of Fire where this one is going.

What happened during the telepath war? If Lyta and Lennier were killed, then when, where, how, and why did it happen?

Not important to the story. As jms said "That's another story." Should we go over the death of every major character no matter when & where it happens?

What happened to Ivonova after she left Babylon 5 to become a starship Captain?

She became General as seen in Sleeping in Light.

What happened during the Drakh War?

We obviously won or we wouldn't be around for Sleeping in Light.

number of useless standalone hours (especially useless this late in the series' life)

"Useless" standalone? What does that mean? Some of us like standalone episodes, and I especially like the standalone episodes of season 5

 

[Hyperspace05]

The problem of season 5 can be summed up in one word... BYRON (and his damned plotline). Die, die ,die!

Ok there were other problems as well, as others have iterated... but man oh man, Byron dwarfs them all.

Still, a season that gives us "The Fall of Centauri Prime" (on my top ten list of B5 episodes) can't be all bad... At least it ended much better than it started. But I just have the urge sometime to strike the 1st half of season 5 from my memory.