Unless it doesn't work that way: if her soul isn't 'there' to be traded for.
Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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Unless it doesn't work that way: if her soul isn't 'there' to be traded for.
I think if there is a 'trading' mechanism on the soul stone, it would be trading one soul for another. Which would mean Black Widow gets out when Gamora goes in. Only problem is how the hell does she get off Vormir then?
It's explicitly stated in the film that the soul sacrifice is permanent and irrevocable. No take-backsies, no swapsies, refunds or cash alternatives.
That said, Gamora may be the key to some weird loophole depending on whether souls are unique and can transcend time, space and quantum realities, or if they're just an interchangeable *thing* each body has, like a spleen or a kidney.
If the latter is the case then the Gamora soul trapped inside the stone is just another copy from another universe just like her body, but if the former is the case then you're into some weird astral form superposition states. Theoretically the Gamora from the past could be linked to the one we know that's still inside the stone.
I could see an effort to reunite Gamora with the two halves of her *self* acting as a back door to stage a mass breakout. Maybe it's get Nat out, maybe not, and maybe once it's done we get an "oops, looks like Galactus was imprisoned in there too" post credit scene.
That said, Gamora may be the key to some weird loophole depending on whether souls are unique and can transcend time, space and quantum realities, or if they're just an interchangeable *thing* each body has, like a spleen or a kidney.
If the latter is the case then the Gamora soul trapped inside the stone is just another copy from another universe just like her body, but if the former is the case then you're into some weird astral form superposition states. Theoretically the Gamora from the past could be linked to the one we know that's still inside the stone.
I could see an effort to reunite Gamora with the two halves of her *self* acting as a back door to stage a mass breakout. Maybe it's get Nat out, maybe not, and maybe once it's done we get an "oops, looks like Galactus was imprisoned in there too" post credit scene.
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It's explicitly stated in the film that the soul sacrifice is permanent and irrevocable. No take-backsies, no swapsies, refunds or cash alternatives.
That said, Gamora may be the key to some weird loophole depending on whether souls are unique and can transcend time, space and quantum realities, or if they're just an interchangeable *thing* each body has, like a spleen or a kidney.
If the latter is the case then the Gamora soul trapped inside the stone is just another copy from another universe just like her body, but if the former is the case then you're into some weird astral form superposition states. Theoretically the Gamora from the past could be linked to the one we know that's still inside the stone.
I could see an effort to reunite Gamora with the two halves of her *self* acting as a back door to stage a mass breakout. Maybe it's get Nat out, maybe not, and maybe once it's done we get an "oops, looks like Galactus was imprisoned in there too" post credit scene.
It's explicitly stated by people who don't really know what they're talking about, though. Red Skull does actually use the word 'exchange' at one point, though it's utterly unclear what he means by that.
The line was: "In order to take the stone, you must loose that which you love. An everlasting exchange. A soul, for a soul." That's utterly unambiguous if you ask me, and one assumes the guy the stone itself seems to have set as it's guide would know what he's talking about. We're certainly not given any reason to doubt his word and all evidence of what went down afterwards seems to back it up.
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An interesting thing about the sacrifice: “Soul hold a special place among the Infinity Stones. You might say it has a certain wisdom. To ensure that whoever possesses it understands its power, the stone demands a sacrifice.”
But apparently a sacrifice is required only by the one who takes it from Vormir. After leaving Vormir, it is passed from person to person and apparently does nothing to ensure that each new possessor understands its power.
Can somebody unpack the “certain wisdom” of that for me?
But apparently a sacrifice is required only by the one who takes it from Vormir. After leaving Vormir, it is passed from person to person and apparently does nothing to ensure that each new possessor understands its power.
Can somebody unpack the “certain wisdom” of that for me?
It may be the wisdom of whoever placed the stone on Vormir. They programmed the stone that way to make sure it couldn't be easily removed. Once removed, though, the programming is broken. Schmidt might not have even realized any of that, since he'd only ever seen the stone in action on that planet.
Come to think of it, that could explain why Schmidt is there at all ... if the people who placed the soul stone on Vormir are the same as whoever placed the space stone on Earth. "If someone has the temerity to hold the Tesseract in his hands, have it teleport him to Vormir. The soul stone needs a guardian."
Come to think of it, that could explain why Schmidt is there at all ... if the people who placed the soul stone on Vormir are the same as whoever placed the space stone on Earth. "If someone has the temerity to hold the Tesseract in his hands, have it teleport him to Vormir. The soul stone needs a guardian."
Agreed. The one ting the MCU needs is a sense of permanent consequences for some of its characters, and not go the way of comics, where the dead are brought back over and over again, removing the impact of their death story. That line you quote is all one needs, and if any film going forward screws with that, it shows that 1) All of the emotion to Black Widow's death means nothing and 2) Disney will do anything if means keeping someone signed that they believe will bring in a certain amount of fans to the box office.
Hopefully, Black Widow and Stark remain dead.
But it's not unambiguous at all. An exchange isn't something that can typically even be described as everlasting. It's a one-time event. You look at that line and assume it means the exchange can't be undone, but one can just as easily and validly assume that it means the exchange is eternally ongoing, ie, one thing exchanged for the next thing, exchanged for the next.
And there really isn't any other relevant evidence from what happened afterwards to look at. There is Hawkeye speaking his beliefs about what Red Skull told him, which is no more significant than our own interpretation of what Red Skull said since we heard the same conversation. And there is Hulk failing to bring her back which isn't really conclusive evidence of anything, since he never really studied any of this so for all we know he just didn't do it right, or it just isn't possible to do it through the gauntlet (bundled together with the Unsnapping) rather than through the stone directly (and individually).
There is no doubt that for the purposes of this movie, we are 100% desired and expected to believe that she's gone for good, which is why there couldn't be extensive hints about a possible return even if that return was planned.
And this isn't to say that bringing her back is necessarily a good idea that they should do.
But the ambiguity is definitely there and with it the potential story if that's where they want to go.
I'm sorry but there really is no ambiguity here. An everlasting exchange is exactly what it says: an exchange that lasts forever. You give a soul that you love, you get to take soul stone from Vormir. What you do with it then is up to you, including giving it to someone else, or allowing it to fall into another's hand, wiping out half the universe, bringing said half back back again. even destroy the stone itself, or indeed,returning it to Vormir for another to seek it. None of that undoes the initial exchange; returning it was a *choice* not a stipulation of the initial exchange.
The stone wasn't rented or lent, nor was it pawned with the soul as collateral. Once the cake is already baked, you don't get to have the milk and eggs back if you don't like the taste.
Also keep in mind, Vormir isn't just some random planet, it's supposedly at "the centre of all celestial existence; the Domain of Death." That's exactly the kind of place that screams "no refunds" and not the kind of place where you really ever want to ask to speak to the manager.
And lets not forget that from a storytelling perspective, it would MASSIVELY cheapen Natasha's sacrifice and heroism if they just get to bring her back. It's important that the cost of this whole thing is real and permanent; indeed that's a running theme throughout the whole movie. It's why the mission wasn't to undo what was done, but to restore way was *taken*.
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Sorry, I don't agree. These films are popular BECAUSE they follow the rules of comic books; not because they (like the many incarnations fans don't care for BECAUSE someone decided - "Hey, this is TOO ridiculous..."
I'm not saying they should go out of their way to bring anyone back, but if they come up with a story (like they have over the years in superhero comics to resurrect characters) that they like and feel works to resurrect a character, I have no issue with it because again, I like these films because they are very much like the comics I enjoyed over the years.
I disagree. The phrase 'everlasting exchange' is borderline nonsensical on the face of it, so cannot possibly be unambiguous because it fundamentally requires interpretation. It makes no sense by itself. What you're describing is a permanent exchange or a nonreversible/nonrefundable exchange, but there is no definitive reason to assume that your interpretation must be the correct one.
The rest of what you're talking about is story logic, and I don't really disagree with your interpretation of the story logic at all. But we all know few franchises will ever be 100% consistent in story logic from one installment to the next. We all have our opinions about whether bringing her back would be even remotely acceptable/good, but if it did happen it simply would not be contradictory to what was said in these films because what was said is wildly open to interpretation.
I’ve never gotten into the comics and one of the reasons is it’s hard for me to be invested in the results of a story I know will just get reversed at the earliest convenience.
I would lose a lot of interest in MCU if I felt there were no consequences and whatever happens gets reversed the moment it becomes inconvenient. If they are going to reverse a death they better at least earn and justify it more then “Oh he’s magically alive because we didn’t feel like him being dead anymore”.
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Different timelines. The timeline in which Black Widow dies for the stone is the one that loses its Thanos in 2014.
Strange reading that on a Star Trek message board.
And presumably its Gamora, for that matter. It’s conceivable she could find her way home, but I suspect she’ll be staying in the prime timeline.
I did like how Steve Rogers (Captain America) was having support meetings trying to help people, I think he learned that from Sam Wilson (Falcon). I can't image what it was like to be Steve. He lost 70 years had to readjust and well, he had his eyes opened in a very hard and real way. With the fall of Shield, and then Civil War and the break up of the Avengers. It was really hard for him to have faith in anything, yet he stayed a good man. Good enough to raise the Hammer! Which was so cool.It's apparent that 5 years later, the world is still in shock. After one half of the world's population disappeared, the rest of us would have extreme PTSD.
That's what I saw onscreen. A marginally functional society, trying to recover from an inexplicable, catastrophic event.
It's hard to say how a random loss of half of the population would affect society, because it's random. Not every segment of society would necessarily lose half, because by design it is a random selection. Not natural selection, just random.
Darwin's rotted corpse head is exploding right now.
I wonder how they will get Gamora and Peter Quill back together. Where did she go after the fight was over? My husband thinks maybe she went off with another Ravangers group? I don't know
I know it is going to be really awful for the people who didn't get to live those 5 years. But one thing I just hate is when something is just undone and nothing is learned from it. I have seen that a lot in movies and tv. Coming back to the exact moment it happened and not remembering and such. I think the world will have a real long haul in figuring stuff out like houses that have been empty or someone else lives there or stuff taken, and yeah what industries kept going and was there still trade going on in different countries. I wonder all that. I think of Wakanda and wonder if that other guy from the mountains ruled. But again I like cause and effect.
The meaning of those two words are entirely clear. If you can't see the sense in them, then at the risk of sounding condescending I'm not sure what else to tell you besides: "consult a dictionary".
You may not *like* the implications of these facts, but facts they remain nonetheless.
You mean besides what is explicitly stated by Red Skull, and what is later explicitly demonstrated when the stones were unable to bring Nat back? The movie went out of it's way to make all of this crystal clear, in three separate scenes.
I mean what more do you want? A signed note from Death herself saying Nat is permanently grounded in the soul dimension and won't be coming out to play, ever? Because what we got was as close to that as one could get.