Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

[FreezeC77]

The fact they said Steve helped many others in his alternate timeline with Peggy seems to indicate a pretty substantially altered timeline.

Children may exist who could have some of his powers there.

But what happens to frozen Steve there? Does old Steve leave him knowing where he is and if so how does thawed out Steve feel seeing Peggy with an older version of himself?

Did a loop of Steve Roger's leaving their own universe to time travel to Peggy in the past start? and if so wouldn't they need to keep travelling further into the past?

MCU Steve travels to (making up a date) May 1st, 1945 12pm. If AU(Alternate Universe) #1 Steve thaws out and eventually goes to the past he has to go further back than MCU Steve and then start his own branched timeline. Then AU#2 Steve would need to go further back than AU#1 Steve, etc...

 

[Guy Gardener]

2019 - 1945 = 74.

Chris is 38.

38 + 74 = 112.

Maybe the Super Soldier Formula is retarding his ageing, but the actor playing old Steve is only in his 70s.

That is a 40 year discrepancy.

Either Peggy died early in the new timeline where she married Steve, or they broke up in the 80s, and after either end to their relationship, Steve returned home from the 1980s alt timeline, to the 2019 Prime timeline, to level up Sam.

Although if he doesn't need the "receiver" to get back to the present, he could have "appeared" on the bench, 20 feet away, but he could not have arrived 1 second before his younger self left the present moment, without creating a divergent timeline.

Getting back to your home timeline might or might not be harder to do than creating new timelines, which is why they can timetravel to anywhere they feel like without a receiver, except "the present" unless returning home is not that difficult or Steve had an upgrade along the way.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The only explanation is that he did not change the original timeline by going back to Peggy at all (i.e. through disguise - which would be difficult as Peggy had contact with Howard, how would she explain her husband who looks just like Steve with perhaps different hair color)... which is a bit strange.

...and that's why the time travel plot cannot work in any logical fashion if characters must perform time micromanagement gymnastics to avoid altering history. As it stands, Banner's theory has First Timeline Steve's 2019 becoming his "past," as in its a past reality he can no longer return to, which is why there should not be that FTS as an old man in a future (meeting Sam & Bucky) he was no longer able to access.

I have no issue with the ending, I like that Steve got his happy ending with Peggy... but it's a bit of a stretch. *g*

….like a bungee cable trying to hold a boulder up in the air.

Ah, yep... so the question remains how he got back to our timeline... nice. (And I want that Bucky series now... right now!!) *g*

You're not the only one. Bucky & Sam are Cap's family and represent him, but they are distinct personalities that are set apart from the rest of the MCU characters. That's what will make their part of the MCU fascinating / exciting.

And sorry, Sharon didn't have Steve's back

Incorrect.

The Winter Soldier:
Sharon (to Sitwell ordering ): "With all due respect, if SHEILD is conducting a manhunt for Captain America, we deserve to know why!"

...which leads to her actions as Rumlow tries to launch the carriers--

Sharon (pulling a gun on Rumlow): "Like he said...Captain's orders!"

Civil War (Sharon risks her life stealing Steve & Sam's equipment):
Steve: "I owe you again." / "They're going to come looking for you."
Sharon: "I know."

Sharon had Steve's back from the start, placing her career and life on the line again and again, which was bolstered by her feelings for him, which he reciprocated in CW.

 

[YLu]

Glad to see the Russos have chimed in on the timeline matter. That settles that. Now we can move on to the truly pressing question:

If Scott Lang didn’t have any Pym particles left, how did he shrink and grow in the final fight?

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's a question of dosage.

3 particles to get to ant-size, or a million particles to get into the quantum realm, a million to navigate, and then a final million to fire yourself back to the big world.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Ah, I see.

I thought the ship was blown up, though? Perhaps I'm misremembering.

The ship was blown up, but Thor specifically says in IW that 'He took the space stone from me when he destroyed my ship and murdered half my people'. Presumably the other half was transported away somehow before the explosion.

 

[Turtletrekker]

There were two ships. The big ship that blew up in Infinity War, and Grandmaster's orgy ship, which was seen docked at the bigger ship at the end of Ragnarok, but not in Infinity War. One can assume that Valkyrie escaped with a number of asgardians in the orgy ship, but they would have had to squeeze in tight. I hope Grandmaster disinfected the thing.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

There were two ships. The big ship that blew up in Infinity War, and Grandmaster's orgy ship, which was seen docked at the bigger ship at the end of Ragnarok, but not in Infinity War. One can assume that Valkyrie escaped with a number of asgardians in the orgy ship, but I assume they had to squeeze in tight. I hope Grandmaster disinfected the thing.

That's true about the two ships, but if they just left in a ship it does beg the question why they didn't pick up Thor instead of the Guardians...

 

[F. King Daniel]

The ship was blown up, but Thor specifically says in IW that 'He took the space stone from me when he destroyed my ship and murdered half my people'. Presumably the other half was transported away somehow before the explosion.

There were two ships. The big ship that blew up in Infinity War, and Grandmaster's orgy ship, which was seen docked at the bigger ship at the end of Ragnarok, but not in Infinity War. One can assume that Valkyrie escaped with a number of asgardians in the orgy ship, but I assume they had to squeeze in tight. I hope Grandmaster disinfected the thing.

I'm glad I remembered right!

Someone also suggested to me that since Thor survived in space the rest could too and were eventually rescued. While that many would never fit on the Grandmaster's ship, it could have been used to ferry them back to Earth a few at a time.

 

[Infern0]

Just got home from my second viewing, needed to get out of the house so what better way to spend a few hours?

Thoughts:

I enjoyed this MORE than my first viewing, which is in contrast to infinity war which I enjoyed a bit less with each viewing, I think it's because so much happens in this film, but when you have seen it once you can relax a bit and don't need to focus to be able to follow it.

Karen Gillian as nebula is the unsung MVP of this movie, I love nebula now and what I'd give for a Nebula/Rhodey team up movie.

The epic final battle is SO FAST, honestly they could easily have doubled the length of it, many characters only get like one shot in on someone and then it's over. It's great to see everyone together but they could have cut a few scenes from earlier in the movie and given us a bit more awesome moments here, I'm sure that the final battle of infinity war was longer.

This time I teared up when Nat died, knowing it's coming you notice them setting it up, I. E Rhodey hugging her for no real reason when she goes off.

The widow movie would be awesome if it was set DURING the 5 years, with her in charge of the Avengers. They need to bring her back too, her arc isn't over and she deserves a happy ending. Her final scene in the MCU should be her goofing around with her daughter with cake mix on her face or something, laughing. Sappy, yeah but that's what she deserves.

Scarlet witch is the strongest Avenger, not Captain Marvel, she literally walks straight up to Thanos and starts killing him with ease until he has to sacrifice half his army to distract her. We already had a female "strongest avenger" before Danvers showed up and it's Scarlet Witch.

I didn't miss vision at all, sorry.

That is about all I've got, but yes, loved it on second viewing, with the characters we have left, in order these are the movies I want/hope they make

1. Black Widow Solo/team up in the 5 year period, with her coming back from soul stone post credit scene

2. Scarlet Witch solo/team up

3. Asgardians of the galaxy 3: The search for nebula

4. Ant man 3

5. Dr Strange and professor hulk take new york

Not really that excited for anything else though I'm willing to give captain marvel another chance as she showed improvement in this movie and was actually likeable

 

[Refuge]

Scarlet witch is the strongest Avenger, not Captain Marvel, she literally walks straight up to Thanos and starts killing him with ease until he has to sacrifice half his army to distract her. We already had a female "strongest avenger" before Danvers showed up and it's Scarlet Witch.

Yep. I personally like her better too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Sometimes" Wanda is linked to the stigma of her father being her father, you know, like how Hitler's kids would have been, if the Winter Soldier hasn't killed him.

 

[Infern0]

"Sometimes" Wanda is linked to the stigma of her father being her father, you know, like how Hitler's kids would have been, if the Winter Soldier hasn't killed him.

Mmmmm personally I think it gives her depth

Well I don't know if I should be excited or dreading her TV show, Agents of shield and those other shows were really "meh" and felt cheap to me, so here's hoping these mcu shows on Disney have a "game of thrones" level budget, and some serious effort put into them.

 

[Rincewiend]

All I am saying right now is that racism, in any form, and sexism, in any form, is wrong. If it doesn't apply to everyone, then any statement of belief of that factor is meaningless and hypocritical.

Hate is hate, no matter which race or gender is on the receiving end. It's indefensible.

And yet you want to whitewash Black Panther(racist) and complain about something Brie Larson said(sexist)...
And the 40 Year Old White Man had a good run...

 

[Claudia]

Sharon had Steve's back from the start, placing her career and life on the line again and again, which was bolstered by her feelings for him, which he reciprocated in CW.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. In TWS you might be right (albeit in a non-romantic way, just a few looks here and there), in CW she went off the rails right along with Steve. Having someone's back means also to try to talk some sense into someone, not enabling stupid illegal actions. As I said before Sharon's actions strike me as brainless infatuation. He rewarded her with one kiss, reciprocation of feelings looks different in my book.

I argue that Tony had Steve's back: He offered compromise at every meeting, he held off the kill on sight-order, he even went to back up Steve and Bucky in Siberia - and we know that Steve didn't have Tony's back.

Yep. I personally like her [Scarlett Witch] better too.

Hm... never quite understood her appeal in movie-verse. She willingly joined Hydra and let them experiment on her out of an ill-conceived hatred for Tony, then she planted visions (could be called mind-rape) on the team, reenforcing Tony's wish for protection for the world. She joined Ultron, set the Hulk free on Johannesburg... and to save her own ass, she turned around and teamed up with the Avengers... without any apology for her prior actions. Another case of let's Tony take the fall.

Clint and Steve treat her like a little girl who isn't capable of making decisions (and face their consequences). They use her ill-trained in missions which lead to quite a few deaths. And when the cry for her punishment and expulsion out of the US grows louder and Tony tries to protect her, she attacks her maybe love-interest Vision.

I think she deserved the raft by that point. It's unfortunate that she doesn't get any more scenes other than those with Vision (although that's missing the reconciliation, did she have to do at least some grovelling for a start?). She's badass in Endgame, but in my book she could have been better handled in the movies before that. And I would have liked to see one scene with her and Bucky: the willing Hydra follower able to influence minds, making them puppets... and Bucky, the victim who was turned into a puppet by Hydra.

 

[F. King Daniel]

If the movie uses alternate realities to explain the mess they make of the eras they visit, which Cap then goes back and undoes, how is it Cap vanishes into the past to be with Peggy but it's the same timeline we're all in where we know Peggy died without having married Cap?

I know we should all do the Austin Powers thing, but it's really glaring considering they made a point of poo-pooing Trek, Back to the Future, Terminator etc when explaining it.

 

[Paul Weaver]

where we know Peggy died without having married Cap?

Do we know that?
Before Endgame we know
1) Peggy died in 2016
2) Peggy got married between 1945 and 2012
3) Peggy continued working in SSR/Shield

In Endgame we found that Peggy still had a picture of Rogers on her desk at work in 1970 -- 25 years after he went in the ice.

Setting aside the Russo's interview, is there anything on screen that directly contradicts the idea that Rogers could have married Peggy, either by going back to 1945 after returning the stones to 2014/2012/1970, or by staying in 1970?

 

[Paul Weaver]

Trying to remember what the ancient one said about the stones. If one were removed from the timeline, it would cause chaos.

Given that from 2018 onwards in the main timeline the stones only appeared for a few hours, does that mean chaos ahead?

 

[Kirk Prime]

The problem with that is, when you are making comic book movies, you're adapting characters written decades ago. It's almost impossible to create new characters, because the comic book fans get upset about that.

Tell that to John Diggle. Yes, it's implied that today, he is John Stewart, but it wasn't always that way, and personally I think that happened because David Ramsey would be perfectly cast as John Stewart, but that's an original character. Steel from Superman was created in the 1990s.

The Incredibles were completely new, and they were a massive success.

As you pointed out, there's Miles Morales. Terry McGuiness is a late 1990s creation.

I also find that new characters taking up the mantle can work as long as you don't take the place of the original or make a switch. Batman Beyond worked because Bruce Wayne was a mentor.

It is absolutely still possible to create heroic characters today. Not just superheroes.

Right now, is there any hero able to do a better victory lap than Arya Stark? She is everything I'm talking about. She's someone who trained her whole life for that moment, and as I mentioned in another thread, was the only one who would have been able to pull off what she did, and the reaction to it has been overwhelmingly positive.

When they recast, and make racial/gender changes, they are only doing it for PC purposes so they can pat themselves on the back and say "we are so woke." It comes off as racist to me because it's saying that writers can't create new heroic characters of color, which is absolutely false.

It's an interesting topic when talked about rationally, though I find that a lot of people can't discuss the topic without expressing fake outrage. Thankfully, you aren't like that, which makes talking better.

You mention casting the best available actor, but to say that there are no white actors that can play X white character is ridiculous. There is plenty of fake outrage when a character of color is cast with a white actor. It's hypocritical to get upset over that and not the other way around. I do believe that the creator made a character a race or gender for a reason. That was the creator's vision. When making a story, that vision should be respected. That doesn't mean a new character can't be created, and I encourage that. And I'll add that today, there are so many female heroes out there and so many characters of color to choose from. There is no need to change what already exists.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Oh great, GoT spoilers in an Endgame conversation which has been taken over by a bunch of snowflakes doing everything other than talk about endgame.