Avengers: Age of Ultron- Grading & Discussion (spoilerific)

[Captain Craig]

^^^^
I'd go with mostly dead.
There seemed to be loose threads within the story and imagery that if some writer pulled at it could resurrect him.
-His speedy metabolism
-Dr.Cho's miracle healing chamber
-the fact they had his body

 

[BeatleJWOL]

He's dead, Jim:
http://screencrush.com/avengers-2-death-permanent/

(in the comic book way where OF COURSE THEY'RE DEAD until they're not. See: "The Death of Captain America" comic story arc.)

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Also the Magneto part.

I'm sure this discussion has already been gone through a number of times already, but Magneto is not really their dad. That was a retcon that supplanted the origin they were first presented with in the comics—which I seem to recall had the Whizzer as their father—and has since itself been retconned as a red herring.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Also the Magneto part.

I'm sure this discussion has already been gone through a number of times already, but Magneto is not really their dad. That was a retcon that supplanted the origin they were first presented with in the comics—which I seem to recall had the Whizzer as their father—and has since itself been retconned as a red herring.

And Superman was never Superboy. - John Byrne run

Wonder Woman wasn't a baby made from clay but the natural born daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta. - Brian Azzerello run

Gwen Stacy had a secret affair with Norman Osborn, got pregnant and gave birth to twins before Norman killed her The Amazing Spider-Man # 121-122. - JMS run

Tony Stark is not the natural born son of Howard Stark, but was adopted. Howard Stark's real son is named Arno Stark. - Kieron Gillen run


That's the nature of comics. They are weird. Canon and continuity can be changed, retconned, and altered to fit whatever the writer, publisher or editor wants.



Originally Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were thought to be the children of The Whizzer and Miss America. However, presumably due to the Whizzer and Miss America not being big important characters in the grand scheme of the Marvel Universe, since WWII (in real life). The change was made to Magneto in the 80's by John Byrne, I think (he was head writer and artist for FF and Uncanny X-Men at the time).

Since that time Marvel has had no problem showcasing Magneto being related to the twins.

During AXIS, Marvel decided to retcon the retcon with a retcon and make Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch Inhumans. At this point they're just spinning it out of their ass to disassociate Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver with the mutant community all together. Mutants are out at Marvel and Inhumans are in!

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Actually, they never made them Inhumans. That was a rumor, but it's not true. They made them genetically engineered, like in the movie (although I think by the High Evolutionary).

Otherwise, I'm skeptical on the details, but if they don't explain M Day and Son of M affecting Quicksilver, I'll be extremely disappointed by what I consider to be a pretty stupid retcon.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ There's also Quicksilver's daughter Luna, to consider. The daughter QS had with the Inhuman Crystal. When QS married Crystal and they had a baby, the baby was normal. The Inhuman genes and Mutant X gene cancelled each other out and produced a normal baby.

I doubt Marvel will bother explaining how the retcon effects Luna.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Luna went through Terrigenesis so I think they can just classify her as an Inhuman either way.

I'm glad they didn't make Quicksilver an Inhuman because that would defeat the whole point of him being an outsider. His marriage to Crystal no longer exists, but it would have still made everything retrospectively weird.

 

[The Old Mixer]

For some historical perspective:

Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch first appeared in 1964.

The story that revealed that Whizzer and Miss America were supposed to be their parents came out in 1974.

The storyline in The Avengers (drawn by John Byrne) that revealed that the twins' mother was a woman named Magda who was on the run from a power-mad husband was in 1979. This was initially tied in with Magneto very subtly before being dealt with more openly a few years later. In an issue of X-Men (also drawn by Byrne) that came out the same month as the Avengers reveal of Magda, Magneto was shown watching some tapes and accidentally came across one of Magda.

The retcon that the twins were never Magneto's children was apparently done this year.

So it's a retcon of a fact that was only revealed five years previously, when the characters had already been around for ten...versus a retcon of something that had been treated as fact for 36 years.

 

[Marsden]

Also none of that makes him not their father in MCU except the copyright.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

So it's a retcon of a fact that was only revealed five years previously, when the characters had already been around for ten...versus a retcon of something that had been treated as fact for 36 years.

I don't see what difference any of that makes. The most recent retcon is always what is treated as fact within the narrative, however long it remains in effect. That's rather the whole point and purpose of retroactive continuity as a device. What we're told now takes precedence over what we were told before, until we're told otherwise. Are you saying that if their origin isn't retconned again for another 36 years, then and only then will this latest revised origin be as valid as their previous revised origin?

Frankly, I've always been a bit befuddled by the attitude that all changes made prior to when one began following the comics are accepted as a matter of course, changes made during the time one is following them are accepted only if one likes them, and changes made after one has stopped following them are just plain unacceptable.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, or presume to know when or if you personally started/stopped reading the comics; the above is a rough generalization drawn from many things I've heard from various people over the years when discussing stuff like this. But given that you seem to have considered their original origin fair game to be retconned, it doesn't make sense to me that you seem to think the one that supplanted it isn't. If something's already been retconned and accepted once, surely the door is at least or moreso as open for it to be retconned again, not less so. (And that's equally true of their current status as well.)

 

[The Old Mixer]

I don't follow current comics, so I don't give a rat's ass about what changes creative team #457 just made last week. Something that was held as continuity for decades holds more water. We'll see if the current version lasts or proves to be something that's retconned back to how things were within a decade.

And part of my point is that their "original origin" wasn't something that came with the characters...it was established a decade later, and itself got retconned inside of the same decade...so it doesn't hold much weight either, having been gotten rid of almost as soon as somebody came up with it.

There's a difference between continuity and history. Continuity is whatever they're currently saying is the truth, and subject to further change. History is what was actually published. Historically, the version where Magneto's their father lasted over twice as long as every other version of those characters' origins combined.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I don't see what difference any of that makes. The most recent retcon is always what is treated as fact within the narrative, however long it remains in effect. That's rather the whole point and purpose of retroactive continuity as a device. What we're told now takes precedence over what we were told before, until we're told otherwise. Are you saying that if their origin isn't retconned again for another 36 years, then and only then will this latest revised origin be as valid as their previous revised origin?

I agree with the idea that the most recent retcon is certainly what's correct. That being said, the consequences of the original retcon weren't as dramatic as this one because of how recent they had been established. This recent retcon messed up a lot of stories both in continuity and thematically. It'll take a lot of work to make those stories make sense in light of the new continuity. Son of M kinda just falls apart because of it, for example.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Although, their connection to Magneto does sort of go back to first appearing in X-men-they were part of his original 'brotherhood' (Along with Toad and Mastermind) before they betrayed him and left eventually joining the Avengers. Age of Ultron even sort of pays homage to this, but with Ultron instead of Magneto. However they were unaware of any family relationship (Although some alternate stories such as Ultimate X-men change this around a bit).

It's also kind of funny that Polaris is his 'real' daughter, and that was thought to be a ruse too when it was first revealed in the 60s (Some kind of trick involving Mesmero and a robot Magneto), but in the 2000s it was re-retconned. There's also the thing with Zaladane, who was possible Polaris's sister, which means when that character was killed by Magneto in a later Uncanny X-men issue he perhaps killed his own daughter. (Although I think Zaladane was only a half sister with a different father but hey, it's comics...).

I think that another reason Magneto and Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch were eventually connected was due to hair. Seriously.

We actually didn't see Magneto without his helmet that much in the 60s. We got some glimpses but he had sort of brown hair kind of like Fassbender in Days of Future past. When we got a more decent look in an arc based on the Savage Land, his hair appeared white, but that could've been because he was old.

However, due to events in DEFENDERS and later Uncanny X-MEN, Magneto was physically changed to his 30s and has remained pretty much the same ever since (apart from some adaptations such as Mckellan's portrayal). Thing is, he still retained the white hair. Granted you've got Storm and Silver Sable as white-haired Marvel women who are obviously not old, but I suppose somebody thought Magneto with white hair explained why Quicksilver had white hair, and thought of the old Brotherhood connection and hence made him their 'real' father. Confused yet?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I don't follow current comics, so I don't give a rat's ass about what changes creative team #457 just made last week. Something that was held as continuity for decades holds more water. We'll see if the current version lasts or proves to be something that's retconned back to how things were within a decade.

And part of my point is that their "original origin" wasn't something that came with the characters...it was established a decade later, and itself got retconned inside of the same decade...so it doesn't hold much weight either, having been gotten rid of almost as soon as somebody came up with it.

There's a difference between continuity and history. Continuity is whatever they're currently saying is the truth, and subject to further change. History is what was actually published. Historically, the version where Magneto's their father lasted over twice as long as every other version of those characters' origins combined.

It is your assertion, here repeated, that (a) the proximity of the enactment of a given piece of retroactive continuity to the introduction of the characters to which it pertains, or to another retcon, and (b) the duration of time it ultimately remains in effect are determinative of what "holds more water" in the here and now that I am challenging.

I was never championing their "original origin" as definitive; quite the opposite. I was pointing out that those who still think Magneto is supposed to be their father are—whether out of ignorance or denial—operating under an outdated premise. I was never for a moment denying the real-life historical fact that he was presented as their father for a long time. I was always talking about the in-universe continuity. I would be applying the same principles if it were 1979 and you were arguing that the Whizzer/Miss America version of the story "held more water" because it had been around for half a decade and the Magneto version had only come about that year.

I suppose I can't really pretend to not understand that people naturally become attached to the version of a story with which they are most familiar, and feel subjectively that it is more "true" than versions with which they are less familiar. But stuff doesn't stop happening in the comics, becoming part of both the publication history and the continuity as it does, just because you or I don't follow them.

I mean, how long did it take for them to decide that Captain America and Bucky in the "Commie Smasher" period were government impostors? That Namor was a mutant? That the Vision was built out of the original Human Torch? That he really wasn't? (And if any of my reference points here are themselves out of date, having been in the meantime altered, it only serves to further my point. Wouldn't mind corrections from those more current on them than I, though)

 

[Doctorwhovian]

There are some retcons that are so bad they're pretty much dropped immeadiatly. I think John Byrne's Chapter One comics, which had Spider-Man's origin tied in with Doctor Octopus, and had the Hulk's origin connected to the Skrulls, were mostly totally ignored by later writers and eventually put into an alternate universe or something. There's a Captain Marvel comic from the early 2000s (When Peter David wrote it and the Captain Marvel in question was Genis, the original's son) where Rick Jones (who's been a sidekick to not only Hulk and Rom but Captains America and both Male Captain Marvels), was laughing when reading the Hulk Chapter One comic with the Skrulls.

 

[The Old Mixer]

And regardless of who their parents really were, that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were mutants was an undisputed fact for 51 years, until just last week.

The thing about serialized fiction that goes on and on and on is that eventually some creative team will come along and try to say that everything you know is wrong. I just don't put much stock in that. If the twins not really being Magneto's children had been part of some master plan, which had informed the efforts of all of the previous creative teams who'd written them under that premise, that would be something. But their not being mutants is just something that the latest creative team came up with the other day, undermining years of stories by other creative teams.

I stopped caring about keeping up with "current continuity" years ago. What creative team #457 just established this year doesn't alter how I would read issues from years past that were plotted and written under the premise that Magneto was the twins' father.

Some think that the latest scripture is always the holiest. I don't.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

[something went wrong with post, working on it]

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I think that another reason Magneto and Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch were eventually connected was due to hair. Seriously.

We actually didn't see Magneto without his helmet that much in the 60s. We got some glimpses but he had sort of brown hair kind of like Fassbender in Days of Future past. When we got a more decent look in an arc based on the Savage Land, his hair appeared white, but that could've been because he was old.

In the 90's and 00's era, Magneto would have his helmet off more. Artists would style Erik and Pietro's hair in similar ways.

 

[Marsden]

My favorite part of their origin was they were raised by a cow.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NZvrpYQgDqo/S-cuF5hC22I/AAAAAAAAAlc/mtBFqu2xJZg/s1600/bova-magda-twins.jpg

http://marvel.com/universe/Bova


I hope those work. ^

In 1932, within his Mt. Wundagore Citadale of Science, the High Evolutionary (HE) evolved multiple animals into "New Men" with humanoid form and intelligence via his Genetic Accelerator. His twelfth success, Bova was an evolved Guernsey cow intended to nurture and care for other evolved beast-men. In 1958, Bova received the pregnant Magda Eisenhardt seeking sanctuary from her husband, Max (later Magneto). After several weeks, as Bova delivered Madga's children, Wanda and Pietro, Wanda's eyes glowed with energies instilled by the Elder GodChthon, who warred with Wundagor's defenders that night. While Bova treated the wounded Knights of Wundagore (HE's New Men warrior force), Magda fled to prevent Max from finding their children. When the visiting Madeline Frank (Miss America) later died delivering a stillborn child, Bova presented Wanda and Pietro to Madeline's husband Bob (Whizzer) as his own, but Bob fled in anguish. He placed the twins in suspended animation for years until he and Bova delivered them to the Roma ("Gypsies") Django and Mary Maximoff. Bova worked with Miles Warren during his tenure at the Citadel and she raised Jessica Drew, helping her adjust after reviving from semi-suspended animation.

The thing I like about the Magneto retcon is it's really not abandoning what came before but revealing another layer to it, Whizzer is still involved, it's not as if the first story didn't exist only that things were not as they seemed.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

....and then of course there's all the Magneto appearences that were later retconned as either robots (as mentioned above, the Polaris story), clones (Joseph) or imposters (Xorn).


And if the whole thing wasn't complicated enough, the Jackal is sort of part of it too!