Yeah! When I first saw "RDA" on the side of the vehicles, I was thinking, "Jeepers, I thought Richard Dean Anderson was more environmentally-conscious than that!"Richard Dean Anderson vs. Alien. Sounds cool.
Avatar is stupid
- Thread starter Deimos Anomaly
- Start date
. Good one. PS: Again, just to make it clear to everyone, I'm not claiming Avatar was a particularly subtle film. It's story was average. Okay. Not very original, but reasonably complex enough to keep me happy and engaged between shots of amazing visual effects. No-one would claim this film is anything special or particularly "good" in terms of story- but I don't see it as "bad" or lacking in subtlties either.
Which, despite all the supposed "political" material in the film, is why it sucked.
Jake was a lousy protagonist.
His arc made no sense. The only reason he is the protagonist is because they took the laziest possible path when introducing a fantasy world - they made the protagonist completely ignorant of everything (with a ridiculous backstory that this company would give this very expensive Avatar body to someone without training that person at all, because, hey, they only had 6 or 7 other people with Avatars, so obviously they needed this one desperately and right now!) so that people could walk around saying, "Hey, Jake, we know you don't know anything about this (the Avatars, the Na'vi, Unobtanium), so let us explain it the audience, er, um, I mean, to you." There's no good justification why this numbskull who hops up with his very expensive Avatar body and takes off in it becomes the point man for the negotiations - which, as it is pointed out, he totally blows due to his narcissicism.
It is never explained why Eywa "chose" him from the first moments that the glowy, glowy jellyfish surround him. He is "chosen" because the story needs him to be. He masters all the Na'vi skills because the story needs him to, not because he actually learns anything or has any untapped resources within himself that the adventure brings forth. The Chief's Daughter falls in love with him, not because he's a great guy, or extraordinarily skilled, or because they find they have a deep soul connection - but because, you guessed it, the story needs her to fall in love with him.
There's not only nothing redeeming about Jake - there's nothing interesting about him. He's petty, shallow, weak-willed and immoral. But he's so heroic that he can tame the Turok and unite the Na'vi tribes after an emotional evolution that occurs in about 2 seconds of screentime.
Most of the ecological/ political/ Dances with Wolves/ Fern Gully/ colonialist background is thematically confused - which is why sometimes it seems the story is throwing around the Mighty Whitey trope and at other times is slamming white guilt down everyone's throats. But ultimately, Avatar is stupid, because Jake, as a main character, is stupid.
How can you forget all that stuff about Quarritch recruiting him for recon? It was not at all clear that his real mission was to negotiate, which makes this complaint rather questionable. Jake finds out how nonnegotiable Hometree is, precisely because he understands the Na'vi better than anyone else. Reducing the issue to rocks the Na'vi don't use falsifies the movie's premises.
Again, Jake's narcissism is not why negotiations don't get started. Insofar as Jake is genuinely meant to open negotiations, he is to negotiate their surrender. He can't bring himself to try because he doesn't want them to be bulldozed away. Which is not only more admirable than narcissism but actually makes sense as a motive, which narcissism doesn't.
On a minor note, the avatar was indeed expensive, which is why not using it when an identical twin, albeit a nonscientist, is available. If this is going to turn into a criticism of premises, start with the big one: A religion that actually provides a kind of immortality for its adherents.
Humbug. Jake acts differently from every other avatar from the second he wakes up. Jake is into Pandora in a way the scientists are not, leaping in and becoming a part instead of an observer. By the premises of the story, Eywa knows it.
He doesn't master all the Na'vi skills. He ignores the Na'vi belief the mount chooses you and goes after the turok.
Jake is a great guy. He puts up with Augustine's condescension and wins her over. He puts up with being called a moron by Neytiri and others. He appreciates the contributions of the scientists, though he isn't one and makes friends with them. He asks permission to speak to the funeral gathering.
Jake's headlong rush into heroism or foolhardiness is the most soundly established facet of his character. He doesn't even unite the Na'vi tribes. The notion that it took Jake to turn the mourners into a band intent upon defending the rest of their homeland is absurd. Security services and police are always antsy about speeches at funerals, by anybody, because the mourners are ripe for getting worked up.
Look at how much of this post complains about how Jake is so weak. If Whitey isn't mighty, there is no Mighty Whitey trope! Which just leaves the objection to white guilt. That pretty much speaks for itself.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Not at all. The deposit underneath Hometree could have been mined without ever touching Hometree. It's called sustainable practices; it would require a little extra effort, open an underground mine away from the tree, with a tunnel towards it/the deposit, and replace the rocks that were taken with soil (if even necessary), and the rocks could have been mined, without destroying or killing anyone.
But the mercs were trigger happy a-holes, and the guy running the place would be getting only 30 million in bonuses as opposed to 35 million; and you can understand, 30 million versus 35 million people, you start slaughtering. Totally normal reaction to anyone who is a sick evil greedy asshole.
White guilt and using the mighty whitey trope are far from mutually exclusive, for example, see Dances with Wolves. Part of the trope is that the white goes native, so a rejection of white culture is inherent in it. This is part of the feeling that "we're culturally superior but our government sucks," which is a fairly common theme in European literature in which the hero is opposed by powerful evil-doers, greedy profiteers, or his illegitimate brother on the throne.
The premise of using alien avatars to win the trust of the natives is bizarre, especially considering that evil aliens masquerading as humans is part of science fiction lore, currently being showcased in "V". It also appears frequently in Star Trek (alien bugs, alien spies, species 8472, etc), Stargate (the Go'uld), Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the X-Files, Terminator, etc. Even had the humans on Pandora done nothing else, that act alone would guarantee native paranoia and violence.
But what makes the trope worse is that Scully becomes their leader and savior even though, by human standards, Sully is a dumbass. At least Tarzan was a Lord. At least Lt. Dunbar in Dances with Wolves was a decorated cavalry officer and Civil War hero.
ETA: In Idiocracy the mighty whitey was completely average in all respects, having an IQ of 100 and scoring exactly average on every test they gave him. He wakes up hundreds of years in the future and becomes President because everyone else is a moron.
The premise of using alien avatars to win the trust of the natives is bizarre, especially considering that evil aliens masquerading as humans is part of science fiction lore, currently being showcased in "V". It also appears frequently in Star Trek (alien bugs, alien spies, species 8472, etc), Stargate (the Go'uld), Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the X-Files, Terminator, etc. Even had the humans on Pandora done nothing else, that act alone would guarantee native paranoia and violence.
But what makes the trope worse is that Scully becomes their leader and savior even though, by human standards, Sully is a dumbass. At least Tarzan was a Lord. At least Lt. Dunbar in Dances with Wolves was a decorated cavalry officer and Civil War hero.
ETA: In Idiocracy the mighty whitey was completely average in all respects, having an IQ of 100 and scoring exactly average on every test they gave him. He wakes up hundreds of years in the future and becomes President because everyone else is a moron.
Many of the ideas in Avatar are very familiar to things I've read in SF literature over the past twenty years. I found much of it visually interesting. That said the Navi are a disappointment. They're designed the way they are in order for the audience to easily identify with them, but there is no sense or logic to the way they look.
Having them being able to link with other animals (and each other) and Eywa is quite interesting, but they still look very much like North American aboriginals or Arawak indians only somewhat distorted in proportion, size and being blue.
Humanoid aliens abound in television SF because it's the most cost effective way to help tell your story. And yet even television SF has tried clever ways to use non humanoid aliens. A big budget project like Avatar could have done something better, but they chose not too. Unlike District 9 (and some others) who managed something more alien on a lot less money.
Having them being able to link with other animals (and each other) and Eywa is quite interesting, but they still look very much like North American aboriginals or Arawak indians only somewhat distorted in proportion, size and being blue.
Humanoid aliens abound in television SF because it's the most cost effective way to help tell your story. And yet even television SF has tried clever ways to use non humanoid aliens. A big budget project like Avatar could have done something better, but they chose not too. Unlike District 9 (and some others) who managed something more alien on a lot less money.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
At the very least the Na'vi should have had a second pair of upper limbs as we've seen multiple animals have, and can be assumed to evolutionary closest to the Na'vi.
Avatar is a decent science fiction effort, but it isn't a truly ambitious one. The visual aspects showcase what is possible to an extent, but they wanted a safe and mainstream result that practically anyone could reasonable understand.
I would argue that if the Navi had been something more alien they might have been more convincing. But since they look so human-like our eyes and brain are not so easily fooled.
I would argue that if the Navi had been something more alien they might have been more convincing. But since they look so human-like our eyes and brain are not so easily fooled.
This is true.
Earlier in the film, you see an evolutionary "missing link," so to speak, with the monkey creature. Look at it, and you'll see it has bifurcated forearms.
Beyond that, I'm shocked that people are shocked that Cameron made the Na'vi humanoid creatures that are relatable to the audience. What the fuck do you expect? Cameron to studio executives - "Yeah, umm, I want $400 million to make a movie about an alien world, all the while creating a new way to film and make it in...umm...3D. Yeah, I know there aren't a lot of theaters with 3D projection systems, but we can force them to adopt it right? I know, we're in untested waters here, and I have nothing to show you in regards to this tech, but trust me, it'll be the best 3D ever. Oh, and the main characters are going to be giant squid creatures that communicate with colour bands that the audience will have a difficult time relating to...but this is science fiction, they'll go for it. So how about that half billion bucks?"
They took a giant risk on financing the project...this is show business...of course there's going to be some give and take, such as maybe creating an alien species that the majority of filmgoers don't have to take a massive cognitive leap to even relate to.
Beyond that, I'm shocked that people are shocked that Cameron made the Na'vi humanoid creatures that are relatable to the audience. What the fuck do you expect? Cameron to studio executives - "Yeah, umm, I want $400 million to make a movie about an alien world, all the while creating a new way to film and make it in...umm...3D. Yeah, I know there aren't a lot of theaters with 3D projection systems, but we can force them to adopt it right? I know, we're in untested waters here, and I have nothing to show you in regards to this tech, but trust me, it'll be the best 3D ever. Oh, and the main characters are going to be giant squid creatures that communicate with colour bands that the audience will have a difficult time relating to...but this is science fiction, they'll go for it. So how about that half billion bucks?"
They took a giant risk on financing the project...this is show business...of course there's going to be some give and take, such as maybe creating an alien species that the majority of filmgoers don't have to take a massive cognitive leap to even relate to.
Pegg is a cool guy.
Avatar fucking rules the world and everyone knows it.
Earlier in the film, you see an evolutionary "missing link," so to speak, with the monkey creature. Look at it, and you'll see it has bifurcated forearms.
Beyond that, I'm shocked that people are shocked that Cameron made the Na'vi humanoid creatures that are relatable to the audience. What the fuck do you expect? Cameron to studio executives - "Yeah, umm, I want $400 million to make a movie about an alien world, all the while creating a new way to film and make it in...umm...3D. Yeah, I know there aren't a lot of theaters with 3D projection systems, but we can force them to adopt it right? I know, we're in untested waters here, and I have nothing to show you in regards to this tech, but trust me, it'll be the best 3D ever. Oh, and the main characters are going to be giant squid creatures that communicate with colour bands that the audience will have a difficult time relating to...but this is science fiction, they'll go for it. So how about that half billion bucks?"
They took a giant risk on financing the project...this is show business...of course there's going to be some give and take, such as maybe creating an alien species that the majority of filmgoers don't have to take a massive cognitive leap to even relate to.
All true- but it's still potentially a legitimate weakness of the film. That doesn't mean we're all slamming it- I'm certainly not, as I'm sure you can see
. Everything you say here is true- but the flilm can still be criticized for this point in spite of these perfectly reasonable justifications. Like I said, there were moments where the film was a little heavy in its exposition- but having witnessed audience response to the "dandelion seeds" sequence, I understood entirely why it was, and probably needed to be. The original criticism still stands, though- it was a bit heavy. The film doesn't lose points for it, because I'm convinced it had to be that way, but it's still something I could criticise if you asked me to point out a weak spot. As for the Na'vi design, I agree with 3D Master that the Na'vi should have had four upper limbs and probably other features similiar to lower Pandoran wildlife (secondary pairs of eyes, for instance). The reasons you offer for why they didn't do it that way are no doubt entirely accurate, so it's completely understandable. But the criticism can still be made- the Na'vi are not as alien as their ecosystem would suggest. The criticism doesn't neccessarily mean an attack on the film.
As for the Na'vi design, I agree with 3D Master that the Na'vi should have had four upper limbs and probably other features similiar to lower Pandoran wildlife (secondary pairs of eyes, for instance). The reasons you offer for why they didn't do it that way are no doubt entirely accurate, so it's completely understandable. But the criticism can still be made- the Na'vi are not as alien as their ecosystem would suggest. The criticism doesn't neccessarily mean an attack on the film.
I know these aren't attacks on the film, I just don't think they're entirely valid criticisms. For instance, you say the Na'vi should have had four upper limbs like the lower life forms on Pandora. But how many limbs do most lower life forms on Earth walk on? Except the forms of life that are evolutionary steps from our own, your monkeys, apes, gorillas, etc. Then there's the monkey creature with bifurcated forearms, showing the evolutionary leap to the four limbed Na'vi.
Earlier in the film, you see an evolutionary "missing link," so to speak, with the monkey creature. Look at it, and you'll see it has bifurcated forearms.
Beyond that, I'm shocked that people are shocked that Cameron made the Na'vi humanoid creatures that are relatable to the audience. What the fuck do you expect? Cameron to studio executives - "Yeah, umm, I want $400 million to make a movie about an alien world, all the while creating a new way to film and make it in...umm...3D. Yeah, I know there aren't a lot of theaters with 3D projection systems, but we can force them to adopt it right? I know, we're in untested waters here, and I have nothing to show you in regards to this tech, but trust me, it'll be the best 3D ever. Oh, and the main characters are going to be giant squid creatures that communicate with colour bands that the audience will have a difficult time relating to...but this is science fiction, they'll go for it. So how about that half billion bucks?"
They took a giant risk on financing the project...this is show business...of course there's going to be some give and take, such as maybe creating an alien species that the majority of filmgoers don't have to take a massive cognitive leap to even relate to.
Also... there's an interspecies love story... wouldn't really have worked if the Navi had looked like Prawns
I know love stories are icky to most Sci-fi fans, but it was basically the whole point of the plot so I think we can sacrifice biological believability for emotional resonance this once.
