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Avatar is stupid

I like How It Should Have Ended's point about Sully not actually doing what he was sent there to do over the months of getting to know you montages: open negotiations between the humans and Na'vi. He was the one chance for negotiation. He didn't even bring up that the humans wanted rocks the Na'vi don't have any use for.

Instead, the humans are left looking to the Na'vi like evil lumberjacks who cut down trees for absolutely no reason beyond ... evil. They're assholes about it, but, it's hard to interact with big blue guys who shoot at you whenever you knock down a tree and won't talk to you.

Hell, maybe starting negotiations could have led to the corporate humans actually buying into the connected planet stuff and the Na'vi could have helped locate more easily accessible ore to mine.

As for the contractors, they are all retired marines. I believe it's actually stated in the film, when they are off-loading new troops early on. The implications of how they are portrayed (gung-ho, hick, racist jack-asses) is that fighting for money, not country, is inherently evil and corrupting and shitty and black-hattish.

Course, soldiers get paid too. Simply painting all free-lance soldiers as scum when they're often the same guys that were heroes when they were wearing a flag patch isn't very interesting writing.
 
I found Avatar reasonably engaging, certainly not "stupid". Maybe I'm just reading (somehow?) into depths that weren't there, but I was struck with quite a few subtlties, myself. I certainly don't claim it was amazingly intellectual or particularly complex- but it isn't meant to be, and nor is it particularly unsubtle either. It was an average story. Straightforward at times, of course, but at others relatively complex. A few plot points and ideas had me thinking them over afterwards, and coming to a few pleasing conclusions about the film's more subtle points. Maybe that subtlty was unintentional- maybe I'm being too nice and all these ideas originate in my analysis only, but I find that unlikely.

And here's the thing; people often seem to need the unsubtle approach. Remember the scene where Neytiri watches Sully and those dandelion-seed thingies show up, and she looks shocked? People in the audience around me were saying "huh?" and "I don't get it". I thought it was obvious; evidently these seed thingies have significance in her culture and thus this is seen as a "sign" or whatever- details are unimportant, because the overall context is clear. Except all these people in the audience seemed to want details; they seemingly needed everything explained carefully and directly to them, because otherwise they couldn't understand. They needed all the pieces handed to them. So at later points when the film did get a little direct and straightforward, I forgave it. The audience had shown me already why films have to do that.

While the story was unoriginal, I must disagree with any statements that it was "Na'vi=good", "human=bad". Not at all. It was human behaviour and human thinking that saved the tribe as well as threatened it, in several quite subtle ways. That whole leonopteryx business, for one. So Sully hears about the legend of the rider who unites the tribes, blah blah blah. So, having fallen from favour among the Na'vi, he decides to regain their trust by going out and taking the leonopteryx as a mount. He just decides. And he does it quite easily. No Na'vi would have done that. They could have, easily, if he can, but that's not how Na'vi think. In their culture, you choose your mount and your mount chooses you. This is made quite clear many times. Humans, on the other hand, choose their mount; end of story. ;) Which Sully does. He chose the leonopteryx- it did not choose him. He disgards the mount he acquired the Na'vi way and, thinking as a human, he decides to just go out and become a legend, acquiring a new mount as a human does. So we have a human who is now identifying as Na'vi yet acts like a human most definitely not as a Na'vi in order to fight humans. :lol: The act that gets Sully recognized as a leader among the Na'vi was entirely and utterly human. You can't truly change what you are. He may think he's a Na'vi, but the impression I left with was that he was in fact, of course, a Na'vi who was also and thus still is, a human. The subtext disagreed with any surface suggestion of black-and-white, at least how I read it. And I can't accept the "Na'vi = all good" argument. Does the line "that moron is going to die!" (or whatever) spoken with hateful glee indicate a nice person? :lol:

Even the "Eywa-to-the-rescue" climax struck me as a possible consequence of human interaction with the planet. At the very least, Grace has been "absorbed" at this point- Eywa now has some human in her, albeit only a small amount. We have been assimilated. Eywa will add our biological and spiritual distinctiveness to her own. :lol: You remember how Sully was "praying" to Eywa for help, only to be told that "Eywa doesn't work like that"- she doesn't take sides. Yet when the animals attack, Neytiri cries "Eywa has heard you!" Was I the only one to get the impression she was at least in part responding as Sully would see it- as in, she's assimilated part of a human worldview? Eywa has become in part the archetypal patriarchal warrior god of Sully's "base" culture; Eywa has picked up her vengeful sword! At least in Neytiri's worldview, maybe in a far more substantial way now that human minds are in the mix. So the Na'vi and Pandora are altering slightly, too. Not as drastic as the human to Na'vi plot, of course- but it was there.

Again, I'm not claiming any of this is the height of subtlty or amazing complexity! :lol: But nor is it the stupidly straightforward plot others are suggesting, at least in my opinion. I know some people have legitimate dislikes over issues such as "yet another crazy, scary military man as the villain" or the tired "evil corporation exploits" ideas- yes, those were perhaps straightforward and unsubtle and potentially unfortunate. But overall trends are more the concern here, are they not? I see entirely how it might be "the straw that broke the camel's back" if you've seen so many movies and too few sensitive and positive portrayals of soldiers, corporate businessmen, etc. But does that make this film, judged in itself, "stupid"? Tiresomely predictable and a bit offensive, okay, I can understand, but in that case is it not the overall trends in cinema people have a problem with?

As for the "Dances with Wolves" "white guilt" argument- imperialism and destroying other tribes to get their resources or for any other reason is not limited to any one race, culture or historical period. It happened/happens all the time, all over, and with people of many skin colours. The more technologically or otherwise advanced tribe attempts to steal from/wipe out the neighbours.

I think people are seeing what they want to see a lot of the time. They see certain political "self-evident" analogies that are only there because they bring them to the viewing with them. It's like the terrorism. That word came up once, if I recall, in a throw-away line in the midst of a classic "justifying an attack" scene. But all those folk in the cinema pricked up their ears at the word "terrorist" and acted like it meant something. It's common practice to denounce an enemy- especially one engaged in raiding and sabotage operations- as terrorists, and to demonise a group you're trying to justify ordering an attack on. Mentioning the word "terrorist" once does not a War-on-Terror analogy make. :p Terrorists and accusations of terrorism were around long before Bush.

I think, overall: "Avatar" is very popular, and so like anything popular it's become a battleground between various political and social ideologies, with much anger and venom and (on the other side of the scale) "I'm a Na'vi in human form!" cults, apparently. :rolleyes::lol:

I think it was a perfectly okay film, with great visuals and a story that was average, not original but possesed enough subtlties and race-identity/individuality/loyalty questions to keep me interested. Stupid? No. Masterpiece? Definitely not.

It was...a reasonably good film. :) Though maybe annoying or personally offensive if you've had one too many "bad soldier" stories and are seeking some balance.
 
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Giovanni Ribisi's character showed plenty of restraint. The fact that the scientist's were said to be doing what they were doing and being funded to do it all this time as a means to a diplomatic solution shows restraint. His character may have been a corporate dick, but he rebuffed Quaritch's demands several times, as well as allowing the science team some time, an additional hour, to try and save the Na'vi before the Hometree attack, done behind Quaritch's back. The entire point of the Avatar program shows that the company wasn't some two dimensional evil conglomerate bent on the annihilation of the Na'vi, but detractors of the film say they are. The company reached the end of its rope and it's patience and greed took over in their final siege, but there was plenty of restraint presented in the film. Why do you think they were funding the Avatar program in the first place? What did that have to do with their greed as far as the ore deposits were concerned?

Indeed. Good points. :)
 
I like How It Should Have Ended's point about Sully not actually doing what he was sent there to do over the months of getting to know you montages: open negotiations between the humans and Na'vi. He was the one chance for negotiation. He didn't even bring up that the humans wanted rocks the Na'vi don't have any use for.

Yeah, this definitely bugged me. He was way too busy getting freaky with the natives to remember the point of his mission. I mean, he could have easily done both!
 
I like How It Should Have Ended's point about Sully not actually doing what he was sent there to do over the months of getting to know you montages: open negotiations between the humans and Na'vi. He was the one chance for negotiation. He didn't even bring up that the humans wanted rocks the Na'vi don't have any use for.

Yeah, this definitely bugged me. He was way too busy getting freaky with the natives to remember the point of his mission. I mean, he could have easily done both!

This is true.

Well, the Colonel did have a point. Being the villain doesn't mean he hasn't got a point. :) And when Sully called himself "a traitor to my people" after the destruction of Hometree, it was ambiguous as to which "people" he was talking about. So I think some of the film's subtext agrees with you, too. :) It should have made more of a point of it though...
 

Dude gets one thing tremendously wrong--

Pandora doesn't have an oxygen atmosphere

It absolutely does, and must. Unless we're postulating a system where the Na'vi and all the other animal life forms aren't aerobic (they're without a doubt aerobic). Also, the humans just use filter masks. I think we pretty definitely concluded that the problem with Pandora's atmosphere is just a high CO2 content, poisonous to people (but good for giant trees), and easily dealt with in the short term with a mask.

I thought his criticism of the Na'vi technological and social backwardness given their biological internet was pretty incisive, though.
 
What i find interesting in discussions such as these is that Avatar almost acts as a Litmus test :p

As soon as i saw the thread and who opened it i knew exactly what the initial posting would contain ;)

As to the movie itself.. it is popcorn blockbuster cinema at its best. Cameron is like a good version of Michael Bay because while Avatar is quite simplistic in its story it nevertheless engages you and tries to make you care about the world and its inhabitants.

I don't believe it was intended as a social commentary because Cameron isn't a critical director.. he merely likes to use elements of our society that from time to time have proven to be immoral and "evil" (remember the corporate suit from Aliens who'd have sold out the entire expedition to bring back a Xenomorph for study and profit?) and Avatar is no different.

You can simply enjoy the visuals (and boy were they stunning!) and take the story and acting alongside or you can start to put in social criticism because similar things have and are happing within our society.. it's up to you.
 
I like How It Should Have Ended's point about Sully not actually doing what he was sent there to do over the months of getting to know you montages: open negotiations between the humans and Na'vi. He was the one chance for negotiation. He didn't even bring up that the humans wanted rocks the Na'vi don't have any use for.

Well, except in that their tree was sitting on them.

I'm sure the Na'vi were perfectly cogent of the fact that the humans were just digging up rocks. They'd been at this for a while (Grace's avatar was grown something like twenty years earlier, IIRC). And the Na'vi probably didn't have much of a problem with the humans digging up rocks, except for the fact that they were killing a lot of plants and animals while doing it. Even then, they seemed to be willing to grit their teeth and live with it until the humans started blowing up their shit to get to the rocks.

The negotiations weren't for the mineral, it was for the Na'vi to relocate their entire village. Which, given the presence of the Tree of Souls, may well have been their capital. Can you imagine if someone asked us to pack up Washington D.C. and move it ten miles down the road so they could open a gold-mine? We'd laugh in their faces.
 
What i find interesting in discussions such as these is that Avatar almost acts as a Litmus test :p

As soon as i saw the thread and who opened it i knew exactly what the initial posting would contain ;)

As to the movie itself.. it is popcorn blockbuster cinema at its best. Cameron is like a good version of Michael Bay because while Avatar is quite simplistic in its story it nevertheless engages you and tries to make you care about the world and its inhabitants.

I don't believe it was intended as a social commentary because Cameron isn't a critical director.. he merely likes to use elements of our society that from time to time have proven to be immoral and "evil" (remember the corporate suit from Aliens who'd have sold out the entire expedition to bring back a Xenomorph for study and profit?) and Avatar is no different.

You can simply enjoy the visuals (and boy were they stunning!) and take the story and acting alongside or you can start to put in social criticism because similar things have and are happing within our society.. it's up to you.

^

This.

I didn't care for the blatantly political undertones to the film, but I enjoyed it greatly as just a fun bit of visual entertainment. I liked the artistry of the creatures and the world.
 
What do you mean by "not really?"

I meant, was Quaritch just another mercenary like the rest of them and only had the 'paramilitary' rank of Colonel, or was he a real military officer who the mercenaries had hired to lead them?

The main point, however, is that he's not in that military in this film.

Really. Well I suppose there could be any number of reasons why not. I mean, it seems clear he's supposed to be some kind of psycho nut-job, so maybe he got kicked out of the real military?

I'm sure the Na'vi were perfectly cogent of the fact that the humans were just digging up rocks. They'd been at this for a while (Grace's avatar was grown something like twenty years earlier, IIRC). And the Na'vi probably didn't have much of a problem with the humans digging up rocks, except for the fact that they were killing a lot of plants and animals while doing it. Even then, they seemed to be willing to grit their teeth and live with it until the humans started blowing up their shit to get to the rocks.

I don't suppose it ever occurred to the Na'vi to actually help the humans mine enough of the Unobtanium so they didn't HAVE to go digging around the hometree?

imperialism and destroying other tribes to get their resources or for any other reason is not limited to any one race, culture or historical period. It happened/happens all the time, all over, and with people of many skin colours. The more technologically or otherwise advanced tribe attempts to steal from/wipe out the neighbours.

Excellent point. I wonder if the Na'vi themselves haven't engaged in behavior like that? No way have they been totally peaceful throughout their entire existence. They're not Halkans, after all. ;)
 
This.

I didn't care for the blatantly political undertones to the film, but I enjoyed it greatly as just a fun bit of visual entertainment. I liked the artistry of the creatures and the world.

Ooh, this is going to get confusing fast. :p

I don't suppose it ever occurred to the Na'vi to actually help the humans mine enough of the Unobtanium so they didn't HAVE to go digging around the hometree?

Like how? It wasn't manpower that was the problem, it was the size of the deposits. The biggest one, by far, was under their tree. Even if all the Na'vi on the planet volunteered to work every possible mine, it probably still wouldn't match the take from just digging out Hometree with one of those crazy giant trucks without any Na'vi help at all.

And it wasn't even an issue that the Corporation was going to miss quota or anything doing the other deposits. They just wanted the jackpot, sustainable practices be damned. They got greedy.
 
Well, they up-ended the Home Tree for nothing, really, because they never got the chance to mine all that unobtanium, before the natives had their little rebellion, and drove the humans off Pandora.
 
^ You'd think the Na'vi would have let the humans have the unobtanium then. As it stands, the hometree died for nothing!
 
Someone destroys your home and all you hold sacred you're not likely to be forgiving about it.
 
I watched Avatar for the first time tonight.

It's Dances with Wolves in space.

Having said that, it was highly entertaining, and absolutely gorgeous. Amazing film making.

:techman:
 
imperialism and destroying other tribes to get their resources or for any other reason is not limited to any one race, culture or historical period. It happened/happens all the time, all over, and with people of many skin colours. The more technologically or otherwise advanced tribe attempts to steal from/wipe out the neighbours.

Excellent point. I wonder if the Na'vi themselves haven't engaged in behavior like that? No way have they been totally peaceful throughout their entire existence. They're not Halkans, after all. ;)

Yes, good point. I believe it mentioned several past incidents in which the Toruk-rider of the day united tribes for their mutual survival; since there certainly weren't any humans on Pandora then, I assumed some other Na'vi tribe had started aggressing towards the others, and that was the threat. :) And they have war-paint, so they must logically have had wars. :lol: As you say, they're not pacifists.
 
I watched Avatar for the first time tonight.

It's Dances with Wolves in space.

What an intriguing thought. I don't think anyone had considered that. :shifty:

Seriously, how much money has Dances With Wolves made? Apparently it's the most popular film of all time.
 
I watched Avatar for the first time tonight.

It's Dances with Wolves in space.

What an intriguing thought. I don't think anyone had considered that. :shifty:

Seriously, how much money has Dances With Wolves made? Apparently it's the most popular film of all time.

Easy, tiger.

I just saw it for the first time. I'm really sorry if you've heard that observation before. This must be very difficult for you, to read it again....

And if you read the rest of my post, you'll see that I was not criticizing Avatar. I thought it was very good.
 
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