Authors on the Boards

[Timewalker]

^In the middle of that rant, did you seriously lecture people about how to have a more civil society?

Did I imagine that?

I have no idea what you imagine. I stand by my words. Christopher and others here have been insisting I said things I did not say, and otherwise misinterpreting my posts - whether due to honest confusion or just a wish to be nasty, I wouldn't know. So naturally I get a little TESTY when people do that and make no effort to understand the real situation.

Tell me, Captaindemotion: If you call somebody by some name or word and they say they don't like it, do you say, "sorry, won't happen again" or do you snarl at them about "groveling at your feet in apology"? If you happen to bump into somebody on the street, do you say "excuse me" or "sorry" or do you yell at them to get out of your way?

That's the kind of civil society I'm talking about. We have it where I live. It's too bad it evidently doesn't exist where David Mack lives.

 

[R. Star]

Timewalker, I've read several of your posts this thread and I'm not even sure what you're arguing about any more. Do you even know?

Given that you're randomly attacking authors, all Americans, people who don't agree with whatever you're trying to prove, and whatever else, I'd conclude you're just arguing for it's own sake. Am I wrong? Or do you just get off on attacking one of the board's.. would celebrities be the word? I could insult all Canadians in turn, but that would do them a disservice to judge them by your behavior.

And yes, if you're going for irony you win points, if at the cost of credibility, by bringing up civil replies in that rant of yours. Really, if you're that upset at some people on this board, just ignore them. If you're getting mad at words that appear on a computer screen, you can just make them go away by clicking an x you know.

As for Christopher? I haven't read a single one of his novels, I may get around to it. All I know of the man is he presents himself as a Trek fan on the boards and is willing to have in depth discussions on the concept. That is kind of why we're all here, or at least it should be. Sure he and I don't disagree on every aspect of the franchise, but that doesn't mean I have to go after him personally because of it. An old speech teacher of mine told me that if you have to resort to personal attacks, it's usually because your own position cannot stand scrutiny. As for him plugging his own works? So what? I would too if I had a book to my name.

 

[Sho]

That's the kind of civil society I'm talking about. We have it where I live. It's too bad it evidently doesn't exist where David Mack lives.

I find that paragraph incredibly arrogant, prejudiced and mean-spirited. Whoa are you not a pleasant person to be around.

I try to be a voice of moderation in these things and have avoided saying anything after my initial link post because really, what this discussion does not need is redundancy, but even I am getting pissed off now.

Let's reflect. We all seem to agree or be open to having the authors around, we have talked about the legitimate needs of both groups and what each needs to empathize with and respect in the other, and we've established where some of us draw the line with regards to tone of voice. I submit we've cleared the air enough to move on with lessons learned. I have a feeling we'll get along because we're a pretty swell bunch on average.

The silly who-did-what revolving around Timewalker is irrelevant for the original topic, and if you truely feel a need to suss out the details any further I humbly suggest you do it by PM. And if you're just feeding the troll because it's entertaining, please stop because drama does drain energy and screw with climate in the long run.

What Would Picard Do, folks.

 

[dahj]

please stop because drama does drain energy and screw with climate in the long run.

I'm Al Gore, and I approve this message.

 

[JarodRussell]

This thread will end either with an infarction or an infraction.

 

[Sho]

Well, Al Gore invented the internet so he is arguably a mod in spirit.

 

[Timewalker]

Timewalker, I've read several of your posts this thread and I'm not even sure what you're arguing about any more. Do you even know?

Given that you're randomly attacking authors, all Americans, people who don't agree with whatever you're trying to prove, and whatever else, I'd conclude you're just arguing for it's own sake. Am I wrong? Or do you just get off on attacking one of the board's.. would celebrities be the word? I could insult all Canadians in turn, but that would do them a disservice to judge them by your behavior.

And yes, if you're going for irony you win points, if at the cost of credibility, by bringing up civil replies in that rant of yours. Really, if you're that upset at some people on this board, just ignore them. If you're getting mad at words that appear on a computer screen, you can just make them go away by clicking an x you know.

As for Christopher? I haven't read a single one of his novels, I may get around to it. All I know of the man is he presents himself as a Trek fan on the boards and is willing to have in depth discussions on the concept. That is kind of why we're all here, or at least it should be. Sure he and I don't disagree on every aspect of the franchise, but that doesn't mean I have to go after him personally because of it. An old speech teacher of mine told me that if you have to resort to personal attacks, it's usually because your own position cannot stand scrutiny. As for him plugging his own works? So what? I would too if I had a book to my name.

If you can't understand my posts, you're not trying very damn hard. I haven't "randomly attacked" any authors. Anybody I've addressed has been for a purpose, not some random drive-by trolling. I do concede that there is a "random" element in my supposition that David Mack lives in an area where people are not very civil, since he thinks that "oops, sorry" is the same thing as groveling on his knees in apology. There are many nice Americans; I have the pleasure of interacting with them every day, on lots of forums, news groups, and other sites. But I have to question how many of them may live in David Mack's immediate neighborhood, based on the things he has said to me.

There are other authors on this forum I have never exchanged a single cross word with, simply because we either haven't posted in the same threads, I found their posts uninteresting (note this doesn't mean I think they were bad, just not something that interested me), or they didn't say something that bothered me enough to reply. So don't go painting me as somebody who has a thing for "attacking 'celebrities'", 'k?

And what you describe as a "rant", I describe as an "explanation." It may please you to imagine me screaming from a rooftop, but that's not necessarily how I imagined me acting when I wrote the words.

I don't mind when somebody corrects me if I'm wrong, but I damn well do mind when somebody says I'm wrong because it's a difference of interpretation or opinion, and mine doesn't count because I don't have the "credentials" or umpteen published books to my credit. If I'm wrong, let it be due to a FACT, not an OPINION or INTERPRETATION.

Did I say anything negative about the authors promoting themselves here? NO. All I said was that they should do so in a professional way. That means *not* swearing at readers/posters, *not* misrepresenting what other people say, *not* calling other people liars, and so on. And I really don't give a damn whether it's in a panel discussion or a Saturday-night room party or an internet forum - if an author wants my business, he does NOT get to call me a liar or tell me I'm factually wrong just because I happen to disagree with his opinion.

Of course, if an author doesn't care if I buy his books or not, he can say anything he wants. But in any case, he shouldn't be surprised when I stand up for myself about it.

Whoa are you not a pleasant person to be around.

I could say something equally petty, but it's really not worth the bother. If you would base your opinion of me on this one issue and ignore the rest of my postings here on Trek BBS (I'm active in several forums), you're being rather narrow-minded.

I get the impression that some people here are simply upset that I got mad at an author. Wouldn't matter why, just that I got mad at an author.

Well, at least I'm not the one going around telling people to "shut the fuck up."

 

[Darth Duck]

Shut the fuck up.

 

[Sho]

Timewalker's post is a good example of classic flamebait. My posts were repeatedly extoling equal treatment and mutual respect between diverse interest groups, and so are obviously incompatible with the notion that I got upset at her being mad at an author. However, insinuating so is designed to distract from the fragility of her own position, and to compell me to defend mine along those lines. There is no reasonable argument to be had here; she will react to anything with a similar evasion. That's why feeding the troll is a waste of time (and with that QED, I'll of course stop replying myself).

 

[Utopianvista]

Personally, I find it a bit annoying the authors come here. It creates an atmosphere where people can't be uncensored because of hurt egos/sycophant behavior. Thus threads like this emerge. And authors whining about "right" criticism and "wrong" criticism. Really?

If you can't handle any criticism you shouldn't read what people have to say.

 

[Darth Duck]

I love having the authors here. I like that authors have come from here. It shows we're all fans.

 

[Sho]

Criticism is not what caused this debate (a case of willful public ridicule was), and being considerate and empathetic toward your forum peers is not "censorship". If people feel uncomfortable posting their unhappyness with a novel I certainly didn't notice it in my recent review thread for the nigh-universally panned Fallen Heroes. Personally I certainly don't feel intimidated into holding back my grievances with a work either, but I try to put effort into articulating them and avoid being mean as a common courtesy.

 

[JarodRussell]

Personally, I find it a bit annoying the authors come here. It creates an atmosphere where people can't be uncensored because of hurt egos/sycophant behavior. Thus threads like this emerge. And authors whining about "right" criticism and "wrong" criticism. Really?

If you can't handle any criticism you shouldn't read what people have to say.

That is a bit of a point.

Threads like this or that would probably be closed if the person in question would show up on this board. But as long as they're not there, people are free to rant. A bit of a double standard. There a hundreds of "Star Trek V sucks major ass" threads. If William Shatner called, stating these threads were hurting his feelings, would people suddenly get warnings and have to stop ranting?

 

[Sho]

^ Doesn't mean those threads are any good, though. The unqualified junk many fans post about people like Berman has actually always really annoyed me. Man, would the world be a better place if more people had the humility to go "I don't know enough about this, so I have nothing to add, or will at least be cautious and inquisitive". Being free to have an opinion also means being free not to have one, after all.

 

[BillJ]

^ Doesn't mean those threads are any good, though. The unqualified junk many fans post about people like Berman has actually always really annoyed me. Man, would the world be a better place if more people had the humility to go "I don't know enough about this, so I have nothing to add, or will at least be cautious and inquisitive". Being free to have an opinion also means being free not to have one, after all.

If everyone acted like that, you would have to close the forums as there'd be absolutely no reason to come here.

 

[Sho]

I disagree. To stick to Berman as an example, you can have many interesting debates about his choices and performance based on the data we do have, such as the fruits of his labors, his own statements and those of his colleagues. What I detest is a discussion entry that is just a blanket statement that presumes to be right, instead of a well-reasoned stance presented as offered for the consideration of other participants. I'd argue going into a forum with that attitude is rather more compelling than just to dump one's claims.

In short, no, there really is no need or right to act like a prick on a web forum. Nobody is taking your room to breathe by requiring you to act decently. If your argument is that Person X should rather not come around so you don't feel ashamed or restricted while exercising your alleged privilege to say stuff you know you wouldn't say in their presence, then chances are the world can do without that form of the argument.

Thing is, I know this situation rather well, because most of you are a lot more caught up on the books than I am, so I often have to participate by making general points, speculating (and saying so), asking and reacting to the arguments of others, and I'm still having fun.

 

[Timewalker]

blah, blah, blah...I'll of course stop replying myself).

I thought you were going to stop replying.

Sho, this was never about YOU. And I remember asking earlier in this thread NOT to be dragged into the discussion, but somebody did anyway - so here I am.

And btw - I loved Fallen Heroes. It's actually my favorite DS9 book.

 

[Sho]

^ Replying to you, that is - and I actually have to break that promise now because I made a Borg cube-sized mistake: I meant Fallen Gods, not Fallen Heroes. Chalk it up to muscle memory!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

And authors whining about "right" criticism and "wrong" criticism. Really?

Nope, not "really." The complaints are about the difference between intelligent criticism and the stupid, self-impressed blather that's endemic to Internet forums where certain kinds of fans think they have the attention of creative people.

 

[Rosalind]

Shut the fuck up.

*mod hat on*

Don't, just don't.

*mod hat off*