Attack of the Clones gets the RLM tratment at last!

[Kegg]

Also... wasn't there an implicit theme of speciesism in the OT (made explicit in the Thrawn trilogy),

Specisism?

Hell, where are the non-white human Imperials in those movies?

However, it's mostly reflexive. Lucas based the movies on the serials of his youth where racial identification with whites was reflexive and non-whites were, if used at all, appeared in silly supporting roles, typically exotic; local colour. People complained about Jar-Jar Binks but really it's been implicit since the first movie, with a mutlispecies hangout being a den of scum and villainy.

 

[Mr. Sin]

The only real indication we have in the OT of that stuff apart from the human officers is the guy in the detention block, who sees Chewbacca as a "thing".

However in the prequels, we have the clearly alien Mas Amedda and Sly Moore, as well as Darth Maul as Palpatine's underlings.

I think there's actually more evidence of anti-droid resentment in the films.

 

[Delta1]

Don't forget the human prisoner in the detention block, who sees Chewbacca as a "walking carpet."

But I'm sure the EU has fixed that with a novella or comic about the high regard in which all Alderaanians hold carpets, and the deep respect the entire Organa family has for the indigenous peoples of Kashyyyk.

 

[Kegg]

But I'm sure the EU has fixed that with a novella or comic about the high regard in which all Alderaanians hold carpets, and the deep respect the entire Organa family has for the indigenous peoples of Kashyyyk.

That's every Tie-in novel to every fantasy franchise ever, right there.

Really, the relative absence of aliens in the original trilogy - particualrly the first two films - does have something to do with the difficulties of realizing aliens. The first film's aliens included some rather less-than excellent designs like a wolfman and a devil. Once muppets and later CGI were proven to be so effective, we see a lot more of them, starting in ROTJ.

 

[Gaith]

Also... wasn't there an implicit theme of speciesism in the OT (made explicit in the Thrawn trilogy), what with the Rebellion being multispeciesal, and the Empire uniformly British-accented white humans? Any PT mention of that? Or would including fewer new aliens have limited action figure sales potential?

I think that is more EU stuff than anything that was suggested in the movies. The only non-humanoid in the Rebellion was Chewie (and that was only because he was following Han around). It wasn't until Jedi that we got Ackbar and Lando's co-pilot. I'd hardly call that "multispeciesal".

Well, when Mon Mothma said "many Bothans died bringing us this information", I think it was pretty clear she meant non-humans, though this wasn't explicitly stated until Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" at the latest. And then there are the Ewoks, who, while not official members of the Rebellion, do indeed rebel. So that's a number of nonhuman rebels, which, compared to the Empire's zero, is an infinitely greater contingent.

As I said, the speciesism was implicit at most in the OT, and explicit in the Thrawn trilogy. But I think it's hard to miss nonetheless, and I certainly expected the PT to address it in some form.

 

[Kegg]

Well, when Mon Mothma said "many Bothans died bringing us this information", I think it was pretty clear she meant non-humans,

It wasn't clear what she meant, as I've bloviated about before. That they're a species is simply one take, even if it's the easiest one.

As I said, the speciesism was implicit at most in the OT, and explicit in the Thrawn trilogy. But I think it's hard to miss nonetheless, and I certainly expected the PT to address it in some form.

So is racism - again, count the number of non-white humans in the original trilogy. I still can't get past Lando, honestly.

Not that there's any need for the prequels to address that, either.

 

[Gaith]

So is racism - again, count the number of non-white humans in the original trilogy. I still can't get past Lando, honestly.

Not that there's any need for the prequels to address that, either.

Say what you like about the production of the OT, but there's no in-universe evidence to view the rarity of black characters as evidence of discrimination. Maybe black humans are a natural extreme rarity in the OT universe - again, not defending the real-life implications of such an artistic decision, but it's still not in-universe evidence of anything.

OTOH, we do see lots of aliens in the OT, none of them Imperial. So there is a tangible, in-universe implication of anti-alien discrimination that doesn't necessarily apply to black human characters also.

 

[Ceridwen]

^
That wasn't something they did by choice though; Revenge of the Sith seems to imply it was a genetic predisposition that all the clones were programmed/grown with by the (secret) order of Palpatine...

How is this at all implied?

They're soldiers, given a direct order by the supreme ruler of the entire galaxy. More than that, this guy might as well be god to them, since he's (in part) responsible for their very creation. He calls them up and says "The Jedi have tried to take over; they're enemy combatants and should be considered target zero." It's their job to kill the enemies of the state, and that's what they do when they turn on the Jedi; no mind control required.

 

[Broccoli]

Well, when Mon Mothma said "many Bothans died bringing us this information", I think it was pretty clear she meant non-humans

Really? I'm pretty sure she said Manny Both-Hanz.

 

[firehawk12]

I just watched this and then went through all his other reviews... funny enough, because I'm a Trek nerd I guess, I found his TNG movie reviews to be much more hilarious. Figures.

 

[doubleohfive]

^
That wasn't something they did by choice though; Revenge of the Sith seems to imply it was a genetic predisposition that all the clones were programmed/grown with by the (secret) order of Palpatine...

How is this at all implied?

They're soldiers, given a direct order by the supreme ruler of the entire galaxy. More than that, this guy might as well be god to them, since he's (in part) responsible for their very creation. He calls them up and says "The Jedi have tried to take over; they're enemy combatants and should be considered target zero." It's their job to kill the enemies of the state, and that's what they do when they turn on the Jedi; no mind control required.

Fair enough. But even a soldier will at times question their orders... the Clone Troopers don't seem to have that problem.

As you said, Palpatine may as well have been God to them for how they so easily and blindly followed orders.

Is there a rationale for why they follow Order 66? Absolutely -- you just provided it. However, that's not what we see in the film. Had Palpatine said to the Clones, "Hey, the Jedi are stirring up some shit and I need you to take them out to keep the peace" that would have been at least defensible... but Palpatine doesn't do that. All he does is say to all the Clone Troopers everywhere "Execute Order 66."

What is Order 66, exactly? We don't know. Lucas probably wanted something ominous for that fraction of a minute between the line reading and the first slaying of the Jedi. But that's pretty much what happens and next thing you know, the Jedi are being turned on and slaughtered.

I'm not saying it's mind-control. I'm not saying it isn't what you say it is. Ever since seeing the film five years ago though, my general interpretation of that scene was always that when Palpatine ordered the creation of the Clone Army, he had an added "feature" to ensure the clone army's loyalty to him, including the bit about programming them to respond appropriately when Order 66 was issued.

It's sloppy writing to be sure. Are we to assume then also that all the Stormtroopers in the original trilogy are in fact just more clone troopers, just later? Or are they individual, "real" people? If they are clones, do they still have the susceptibility to follow Palpatine's orders, or could one of them --if they so chose-- rebel? Wasn't Han Solo originally a cadet in the Imperial Academy? Could he have been a storm trooper, or was he aiming for one of the Star Destroyer command jobs?

Admittedly I don't know enough about the inner workings of the Empire command structure, but if I'm wrong I'll gladly relent. I just never considered that Palpatine hadn't programmed the Clones to his advantage, much like the Founders did with the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta. It just makes tactical sense.

 

[Kegg]

So is racism - again, count the number of non-white humans in the original trilogy. I still can't get past Lando, honestly.

Not that there's any need for the prequels to address that, either.

Say what you like about the production of the OT, but there's no in-universe evidence to view the rarity of black characters as evidence of discrimination.

You can't have it both ways, sorry. The logic you use for specism in the OT is pretty much identical to the logic I just used for racism. For example:

Maybe black humans are a natural extreme rarity in the OT universe

And maybe humans were the overwhelming majority, species-wise. Prior to Return of the Jedi you can practically count on one hand the number of representatives per species - off the top of my head only the Jawas, Ughnaughts, and Bith would exceed that arbitary number. Even then we're talking about a handful. There could only be a few thousand Jawas, all of them denizens of Tattooine, for all we know.

OTOH, we do see lots of aliens in the OT, none of them Imperial.

We also see no Imperial blacks. At all. Actually, factor in the prequel trilogy, and while we now see aliens as Palpatine's aids, he still doesn't have any black confidants.

 

[The Evil Dead]

I just watched this and then went through all his other reviews... funny enough, because I'm a Trek nerd I guess, I found his TNG movie reviews to be much more hilarious. Figures.

I feel the same way. The intercutting between TV Picard and Movie Picard is the funniest thing he's done, in my opinion.

 

[Harry Palmer]

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

You would never say "The US Army attacked the Japanese forces at Pearl Harbor" because they didn't. They defended themselves against the sneak attack.

However there is such a thing as a counter-attack. And the arrival of the Clones on Geonosis definitely constituted an attack. The Clones went on the offensive and assaulted an enemy planet, that's sort of what attacking is even by your definition.

YODA LIED! THE REPUBLIC DIED!

 

[firehawk12]

I just watched this and then went through all his other reviews... funny enough, because I'm a Trek nerd I guess, I found his TNG movie reviews to be much more hilarious. Figures.

I feel the same way. The intercutting between TV Picard and Movie Picard is the funniest thing he's done, in my opinion.

I really love the end of the Generations review, when Picard tosses away that artifact and he cuts to the episode where he gets it. It was just brilliant.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I just watched this and then went through all his other reviews... funny enough, because I'm a Trek nerd I guess, I found his TNG movie reviews to be much more hilarious. Figures.

I feel the same way. The intercutting between TV Picard and Movie Picard is the funniest thing he's done, in my opinion.

I really love the end of the Generations review, when Picard tosses away that artifact and he cuts to the episode where he gets it. It was just brilliant.

I would seriously like to ask the writers of that movie what they were thinking when they did that.
I mean it's not the stupidest thing ever, but to go out of your way to include that prop, then have Picard do that, is just weird.

 

[Delta1]

I wonder how we'd feel about Leia if she had addressed Lando with as much cultural sensitivity as she bore towards Chewbacca?

"I'm Lando Calrissian, Baron-Administrator of this city."

"Get out of my way, darkie."

It would take KJA and his wife an entire trilogy of novels to retcon that into something palatable.

It's pretty obvious that, by the time of the OT, the supreme command of the Imperial military is human, male, white, and speaks with an English accent. I blame COMPNOR. I stopped following the EU after TPM, but COMPNOR was originally the Star Wars analog to the Nazi Party, shaping the moral and physical development of the generation that grew up during the Empire. It was highly biased towards humans, particularly humans of the Core Worlds (=English accents). The support of other human-dominated Core Worlds was also necessary to enforce the New Order, so it became politic to throw the aliens under the bus.

 

[Kegg]

I mean it's not the stupidest thing ever, but to go out of your way to include that prop, then have Picard do that, is just weird.

I really doubt they went out of their way. They probably happened to still have the prop so included it in that scene.

 

[Gaith]

The logic you use for specism in the OT is pretty much identical to the logic I just used for racism.

Please note that I didn't dismiss the possibility of Imperial racism as well as speciesism. But we saw dozens and dozens of aliens in the OT, and, so far as I know, only one black human. That's a significant difference.

Maybe black humans are a natural extreme rarity in the OT universe

And maybe humans were the overwhelming majority, species-wise.

The OT does indeed present that possibility, but the PT Coruscant seems far too diverse to support such a hypothesis. Instead of aliens being the occasional exception, they seem to be a sizable majority.

It's pretty obvious that, by the time of the OT, the supreme command of the Imperial military is human, male, white, and speaks with an English accent. I blame COMPNOR. I stopped following the EU after TPM, but COMPNOR was originally the Star Wars analog to the Nazi Party, shaping the moral and physical development of the generation that grew up during the Empire. It was highly biased towards humans, particularly humans of the Core Worlds (=English accents). The support of other human-dominated Core Worlds was also necessary to enforce the New Order, so it became politic to throw the aliens under the bus.

See, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Thanks; I hadn't heard of that.

 

[T'Baio]

I mean it's not the stupidest thing ever, but to go out of your way to include that prop, then have Picard do that, is just weird.

I really doubt they went out of their way. They probably happened to still have the prop so included it in that scene.

It sucks that they didn't realize it, but I'm sure it was a prop that they knew was in an episode, happened to be around for them to use, but most likely no one remembered the exact deal about it or how important it was to the character. And it's not like actors remember every scene they've been in over hundreds of episodes over almost a decade.