Assessing DS9's Legacy

[timtonruben359]

Sadly, I didn't get a chance to go and see the new documentary in theatres last night, but hope to get a copy when its out on blu-ray. Anyways, I found this review that touches upon the documentary but also talks about how DS9 has shaped Star Trek Discovery and whose influence on the franchise has surpassed all the other spin-offs.

What do you guys think? Do you think DS9 has had a much more profound effect on the franchise than some fans want to admit?

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Sadly, I didn't get a chance to go and see the new documentary in theatres last night, but hope to get a copy when its out on blu-ray. Anyways, I found this review that touches upon the documentary but also talks about how DS9 has shaped Star Trek Discovery and whose influence on the franchise has surpassed all the other spin-offs.

What do you guys think? Do you think DS9 has had a much more profound effect on the franchise than some fans want to admit?

Yes, it's had more of an effect than some fans want to admit, but it's debatable whether its influence "surpassed all other spin-offs." Choosing between VOY and ENT, I would say yes it had more influence in the long-run than they did. But if we're regarding TNG as a spin-off of TOS, then that had the most influence in my opinion.

Sorry you missed the showing. It will be worth buying, and I'll be getting a copy of my own for the extras. It was a well-attended showing, and people haven't forgotten DS9 by any means!

 

[Antonovus]

I think the question is really academic as to whether DS9 was more profound than any other spin-off. Also, I would not refer to shows that are not TOS as spin-offs. They are more like other Star Trek shows. Thank you for pointing out the documentary. I look forward to watching it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I would say yes. Star Trek has had difficulties adapting to the cultural landscape since the premiere of The Sopranos. Personal conflict and long-term story telling are not things that Star Trek series have dealt with abundantly. DS9 is perhaps the only place where questions about how to be more modern within the confines of the franchise can be explore. I don't think it is coincidental that Braga wanted to turn Enterprise over to Behr in season 3, or that Section 31 had appeared in three (soon four) iterations of the franchise, or that they keep coming back to what it means to go to war, etc.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

I would say yes. Star Trek has had difficulties adapting to the cultural landscape since the premiere of The Sopranos. Personal conflict and long-term story telling are not things that Star Trek series have dealt with abundantly. DS9 is perhaps the only place where questions about how to be more modern within the confines of the franchise can be explore. I don't think it is coincidental that Braga wanted to turn Enterprise over to Behr in season 3, or that Section 31 had appeared in three (soon four) iterations of the franchise, or that they keep coming back to what it means to go to war, etc.

I'm a fan of DS9 and DSC, but I always thought it was funny when any DSC higher ups said it was going to be a new thing to see the Federation at war in season 1, as if DS9 hadn't done that already with the Dominion war.

 

[BillJ]

Not sure about its legacy. I find it much like its other Berman-era counterparts. Could hit the highest highs, but could also manage mind-boggling lows.

Anyways, I found this review that touches upon the documentary but also talks about how DS9 has shaped Star Trek Discovery...

Then every copy of DS9 should be collected up and shot into the Sun.

 

[johnjm22]

Could hit the highest highs, but could also manage mind-boggling lows.

I think that describes the entire Star Trek franchise as a whole.

And Discovery has hit the lowest of those mind boggling lows.

 

[Phily B]

Probably had a bigger effect than TNG on the recent properties - Discovery and Star Trek Into Darkness all seemed heavily influenced by it.

 

[Tuvix5675]

I think the question is really academic as to whether DS9 was more profound than any other spin-off. Also, I would not refer to shows that are not TOS as spin-offs. They are more like other Star Trek shows. Thank you for pointing out the documentary. I look forward to watching it.

That could probably apply to TNG, ENT, and DSC, but DS9 and VOY are definitely spin-offs. DSC was a direct spin-off from TNG (even with carry-over characters: Chief O'Brian and originally Ro Laren who was changed to Kira, Worf was brought on later), and VOY was a spin-off of DS9, or TNG (though less so than DS9, since all the characters were new, only Robert Duncan McNeil and Tim Russ had been in previous Trek episodes but as different characters).

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

It's the pinnacle of Trek.

 

[Antonovus]

That could probably apply to TNG, ENT, and DSC, but DS9 and VOY are definitely spin-offs. DSC was a direct spin-off from TNG (even with carry-over characters: Chief O'Brian and originally Ro Laren who was changed to Kira, Worf was brought on later), and VOY was a spin-off of DS9, or TNG (though less so than DS9, since all the characters were new, only Robert Duncan McNeil and Tim Russ had been in previous Trek episodes but as different characters).

Okay, I can see your point. However, they don't feel like spin-offs in the classic sense. For example, the Jeffersons was a spin-off of All in the Family. For the Trek shows, there is too much similarity in terms of continuity, aims the federation, etc. for me (personally) to consider them spin-offs. Again, I get where you are coming from completely though.

 

[at Quark's]

I have no idea. I mean DS9 was a great series but how to assess its legacy?

Suppose DS9 had never been made. Would later Trek series have turned out any differently than they did? Would extended storytelling arches not have found their way into Trek? Wouldn't it have seeped in anyway because of the trend in other shows - or was DS9 so influential that it was one of the shows that started this trend in the television landscape? I have no clue.

 

[BillJ]

...or was DS9 so influential that it was one of the shows that started this trend in the television landscape?

But it wasn't remotely one of the shows to start the trend. Arc-based storytelling goes back a really, really long time. I think where DS9 has succeeded in the legacy department is that many of the themes and ideas it tackled are still relevant today.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Suppose DS9 had never been made. Would later Trek series have turned out any differently than they did? Would extended storytelling arches not have found their way into Trek? Wouldn't it have seeped in anyway because of the trend in other shows - or was DS9 so influential that it was one of the shows that started this trend in the television landscape? I have no clue.

There are several different issues going on at once. Only measuring how influential it was I think diminishes what the show accomplished.

Was it influential? Perhaps not directly, and not in terms of moving audiences toward a particular style of television. Of course, it produced showrunners, who would themselves apply the solutions that they learned while trying to work out problems from DS9. Within Star Trek, it's clear that Fuller and Kurtzman has looked to DS9 to see how the franchise might adapt to the current tv landscape. Even Braga has doffed his hat to the series.

Was it innovative? What DS9 did differently was completely unknown within action adventure television. The individual elements that were introduced may not have been unique, but they were unique within the context of the genre. I am hard pressed to find the depth of character development in similar genre series, particularly in space opera characterized by the pew-pew fighting. Indeed, I am hard pressed to think of a better father-son relationship up to this point that was better than the Siskos, and it stands it great contrast to Luke-Darth Vader, perhaps science fiction's most famous father-son relationship.

Was it prescient? I think this is very high. What made the series unique was largely a response to the frustrations the writers had with the genre and with Star Trek in particular. On the other hand, it did not really upend action-adventure television,it merely pushed it as far as it could go. I think that the better solutions would be in the series created in the next decade.

 

[Tuvix5675]

But it wasn't remotely one of the shows to start the trend. Arc-based storytelling goes back a really, really long time. I think where DS9 has succeeded in the legacy department is that many of the themes and ideas it tackled are still relevant today.

True, you had serialized story telling in the late 60s/70s in Dark Shadows and Lost in Space, in the 80s on Dallas, and in the early 90s with Twin Peaks. What I found most interesting about the documentary was when Ira was saying that a show like DS9 could not have been done after 9-11, because of its themes-terrorism, occupation, war. Or if it had been done it would have been a different show. Remember ENT was co-opted by Paramount's president due to the Iraq War, that's where the whole Xindi story line came from; Enterprise in the Expanse looking of the Sphere builders was like American soldiers in Iraq searching for WMDs.