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Spoilers Arrow - Season 5

I couldn't get into Arrow and everytime I watch it for a crossover (be it with Flash, or now this 4 episode crossover event) - I understand why. Yes, elements of long running comic series are soap opra-ish - but Arrow seemed to take that aspect to the extreme. (And for me of late - sometimes the Flash is getting too soap opera-ish; but still nowhere as much as Arrow.)

Plus I find some of the other characters they added to be just plain annoying. I didn't even know DC had ever created a character that wears a Jason-esque (ala Friday the 13th) Hockey Goalie mask - ugh.
 
This episode tried to be two things, a part of the crossover and a 100th episode special. Sadly, it didn't really succeed at either. Choose one or the other people!
 
After the superlative Flash episode, this second part was a real disappointment. I can't believe how much screentime was taken up on a "what if" dream sequence rather dealing with the invasion and the hero team up. I feel like our four part crossover has been basically robbed of two episodes now. Everything was enjoyable, but I wanted a team up movie, not an Arrow character piece. Flash and Supergirl are barely in it!
 
This episode tried to be two things, a part of the crossover and a 100th episode special. Sadly, it didn't really succeed at either. Choose one or the other people!

Being the 100th Arrow episode is a special landmark that TV shows like to celebrate but being a crossover episode also demanded special attention. So the producers felt that they had to do both at the same time. I guess if they had to choose, they should have focused on the crossover and ignored the fact that it was the 100th episode. After all, the crossover is the main focus. I also feel like the crossover might be suffering from the fact that they are spreading it across 4 different shows, each with their own styles. So each episode still has to retain the style of its show while also being a crossover which dilutes the crossover appeal a bit. Having said that, I am still enjoying the crossover. The flash episode is still my favorite so far.
 
And yeah, did Mick just bugger off down the pub in this episode and nobody noticed?

Stein & Jax weren't here either, nor was anyone from Team Flash other than Barry & Cisco.



Well from a real-world perspective, Supergirl already did the black mercy thing and Barry had Flashpoint, so it would just be going back over old ground.

No, I meant I was wondering what the Dominators' in-story reason would be for taking only Arrow-connected characters. The real-world reason is that they needed to set up Arrow's 100th episode, so of course it would focus on Arrow characters. When that happened, I wondered what the in-story excuse for that would be. And the explanation that they took only non-powered humans makes sense, aside from Mick's omission. (Was he already inside when the teleport beams started?)


Yeah I have to say so far this crossover isn't doing a whole lot for me. I understand there are budget considerations and it's probably not an easy thing to write with all the characters involved, but the story still feels awfully clunky and thrown together, with too much attention being on each show's standard angst and melodrama instead of on the actual team-up and the huge alien threat they should all be focusing on.

But that's how crossovers generally work. They're not usually some single completely homogeneous blend of everything, unless they're separate miniseries altogether like the original Secret Wars or Crisis on Infinite Earths. If it's the kind of crossover that's made up of issues/episodes of the various regular series involved, then it should be expected that each installment will be an episode of its own series first, a crossover second. That's normal, both for TV crossovers and comics crossovers. Heck, even back in the '90s when DC had all four Superman books telling one big connected story -- as in the Death/Rebirth of Superman saga -- each individual book's creative team still focused on its own featured characters and subplots within that larger linked narrative. (Which sometimes led to some contrived plotting where a looming problem in one issue would just get ignored for the next three chapters of the saga until the focus came back to that series's supporting cast again.) So I never expected anything different from what we're getting.

I'll agree, though, that the impact of the actual alien incursion (particularly the assassination of the POTUS) has been underplayed up to now. But then, the Dominators have been playing kind of a clandestine game up to this point. I think it'll work better once we see it as a complete whole -- these episodes are the buildup, and tonight's finale will be the grand payoff when the plans the Dominators have been laying come to fruition and the big battle happens.


Plus I find some of the other characters they added to be just plain annoying. I didn't even know DC had ever created a character that wears a Jason-esque (ala Friday the 13th) Hockey Goalie mask - ugh.

While it's true that Wild Dog was created by Max Allan Collins and Terry Beatty in 1987, five years after Jason Voorhees first donned his goalie mask in Friday the 13th Part III, the character's use of a mask was not meant to be a reference to Jason in any way. After all, goalie masks existed before Jason started to wear one. The idea behind Wild Dog (who was Jack Wheeler in the comics, not Rene Ramirez) was that he was a "realistic" street-level vigilante who put together a makeshift costume out of what was available. He was created to be DC's answer to the Punisher, although it was taken to an almost parodic extreme.
 
I'm liking this crossover. There's a lot of fan service (the Hall of Justice, et al) and nerdgasm throughout the different shows, and I believe even Felicity vocalized what some viewers might expect. "Best Team-up Ever!" The presence of Laurel, Robert and Moira Queen, Tommy Merlyn, and Roy Harper made the Arrow episode bittersweet. The shared illusion was meant to trap them all (Ollie, Thea, Diggle, Sarah, and Ray) in that state, so when they started to notice some things were off, villains like Deathstroke, Damien Dahrk, and Malcolm Merlyn appeared to confront them. (At some point, I was expecting Laurel to turn aggressive and attack Ollie towards the end, but that didn't happen.) It did remind me of the Black Mercy episode on Supergirl.
 
So, I couldn't quite catch Steel's explanation for how the Waverider found Oliver and Co. in time. What was it again?
 
So the scene when Oliver's about to get in the portal and ghostly images of all of the lost loved ones he's leaving behind appear accompanied by soundbites from previous episodes...why was Felicity there? Dramatically it made no sense,

Well her line did make sense: "You honor the dead by fighting, and you're not done fighting!"
Besides, Roy was there too, and he's also still alive.

The one thing I was confused about was the absence of Mick

They were only taking heroes maybe? ;)

delivering up a non-Superman Family riff on "For the Man Who Has Everything"

I thought it was actually better than both Supergirl's take on that story last season and Flashpoint this season. It was great to revisit the show's past and see some of the old characters(kinda sad they didn't get Manu Bennett back for one more "I keep my promises, kid" ;)).
Amell did a good job throughout the episode, being well... emotional, which Oliver rarely does. The best bits were at the party before they were leaving, saying goodbye to his parents and his conversation with Thea: "I didn't make those sacrifices for a reward, Thea. I did what I did because I thought it was right. And seeing all of this shows me that there's so much more to do."

Thea shooting an arrow into Sara's hand so she can stab Darhk with it was neat. :techman:

No Evelyn? Guess it was a school night.

Kinda weird that nobody apparently figured that aliens from outer space would actually beam them up... to space. They all seemed incredibly surprised by that revelation.

I'm pretty sure this episode disproves the popular theory that Tommy is Prometheus, because this would have been an excellent opportunity to introduce potential new viewers to who he is.
 
So, I couldn't quite catch Steel's explanation for how the Waverider found Oliver and Co. in time. What was it again?

That Felicity and Cisco had tracked their coordinates and passed the info along. That was the gist of the earlier scene where Felicity and Rory recognized that the Dominators' language paralleled Hebrew numerology, giving them a basis for cracking it. (I wonder if that will be explained tonight, or if it was just an excuse to give Felicity the key to cracking the code.)

I'm disappointed that Amaya hasn't appeared in the crossover yet. I was hoping for some acknowledgment of the two Vixens and Amaya being Mari's grandmother. Although maybe it's best that Amaya doesn't learn too much about her own family's future. (I'm also wondering what the in-story reason is for Mari not being part of the team-up. In season 2 of her web series, she was teaming up with other heroes all the time, e.g. when Cisco called her in to an "all hands on deck" defense of Monument Point against the Weather Wizard. I'd say an alien invasion is as "all hands on deck" as it gets.)
 
No Evelyn? Guess it was a school night.
"It’s funny, to be honest with you, in the break of 508, we talked a lot about ‘Do we have her in there?’ It felt like it was the elephant in the room and we didn’t want it distracting, so we don’t reference it in large part because I’m not a fan of, ‘Oh, it’s too bad that Evelyn’s mom is sick this week.’ I would prefer to just whistle past the graveyard. I will say, you will get a payoff to 507’s cliffhanger with respect to Evelyn big time in 509." - Marc Guggenheim​

Source
 
Too complicated or too much for an alreay packed crossover.

I'm not saying I can't understand why they did it, I'm saying I regret that they did it. I mean, it's easy enough to see how the character connections determined who appeared in each part. Nate and Amaya were left out of the Flash segment because they're the two new kids who have the least connection to the other characters. Stein, Jax, and Mick were all originally Flash characters, Ray has been on The Flash, and Sara had to be there to set up her role in the Arrow portion, but the other two were the odd ones out. Nate showed up here because he has a connection to Oliver (though it's one that only LoT viewers would be aware of). They probably can't afford to have everyone guest star in every episode, so they have to choose.

Although Amaya does have a peripheral connection to Oliver, because her granddaughter Mari's one live-action appearance was in an Arrow episode. So there's at least as much connection there as there is with Nate. But I guess it would've been too complicated to explain, so they went with Nate instead.

But knowing the reason why something was done does not automatically make it preferable. Having more opportunities to watch Maisie Richardson-Sellers is highly preferable to having fewer opportunities to watch Maisie Richardson-Sellers.
 
This episode didn't utilize Barry and Kara very well. And I found it hard to connect with the younger "Arrow" characters, because I had not seen the show for quite a while. Otherwise, I enjoyed it. I especially enjoyed how the episode dealt with Oliver, Thea and Sara's reactions to the idea of losing Laurel and the senior Queens all over again.
 
While it's true that Wild Dog was created by Max Allan Collins and Terry Beatty in 1987, five years after Jason Voorhees first donned his goalie mask in Friday the 13th Part III, the character's use of a mask was not meant to be a reference to Jason in any way. After all, goalie masks existed before Jason started to wear one. The idea behind Wild Dog (who was Jack Wheeler in the comics, not Rene Ramirez) was that he was a "realistic" street-level vigilante who put together a makeshift costume out of what was available. He was created to be DC's answer to the Punisher, although it was taken to an almost parodic extreme.
My first thought when I see Wild Dog in the mask is Teenage Mutant Turtles' Casey Jones. I realize now that that is actually kind of ironic, since Stephen Amell just played Jones in the second new live action TMNT movie.
I'm pretty sure this episode disproves the popular theory that Tommy is Prometheus, because this would have been an excellent opportunity to introduce potential new viewers to who he is.
In the 100th episode interviews on IGN one of the producers they talked to said Colin Donnell was to busy to come back for the episode, so unless he got free time later in the season, that could also rule out him being Prometheus.
I was really happy with this as both the 100th episode and part of the crossover. Having the Dominators hook them into a computer simulation was a great way to give us a situation where they could bring back former cast members, but wasn't totally ignoring the crossover. It was kind of a hard situation since they wanted to do something looking back at the show's history for the 100th episode, but also wanted it to be part of the crossover.
It bugged me that the Dominators left such an obvious way out of the simulation. I was hoping they would give some kind of explanation for why it was there, but we didn't get any.
Oliver wanting to just leave Thea in the simulation also seemed kind of weird. I think it would have been OK if it was an alternate timeline or something like that, but leaving his little sister in the hands of aggressive invading aliens with no real idea of what exactly they were going to do to her seemed like a really bad idea.
It was a lot of fun seeing Barry, Cisco, and Kara all working with the new team (minus Evelyn/Artemis).
 
My first thought when I see Wild Dog in the mask is Teenage Mutant Turtles' Casey Jones.

Who was introduced just two years before Wild Dog. There were a lot of goalie-masked characters in the '80s, apparently. Was hockey really popular back then or something?


I realize now that that is actually kind of ironic, since Stephen Amell just played Jones in the second new live action TMNT movie.

I still have trouble wrapping my head around that. I haven't had any interest in seeing the new TMNT movies, so I haven't seen Amell's performance.


In the 100th episode interviews on IGN one of the producers they talked to said Colin Donnell was to busy to come back for the episode, so unless he got free time later in the season, that could also rule out him being Prometheus.

Unless... that's what they want us to think! :shifty:


It bugged me that the Dominators left such an obvious way out of the simulation. I was hoping they would give some kind of explanation for why it was there, but we didn't get any.

Well, as Ray said, he believed the whole simulation had been a distraction for their conscious minds while the Dominators probed their subconscious memories. My interpretation is that making it a game of sorts, a puzzle they had to solve, made it a more effective distraction for their conscious minds than if it had just been a simulation of a placid everyday reality. And maybe it was a rats-in-a-maze thing, a test of human intelligence or problem-solving skill. Heck, sci-fi aliens love to put humans through psychological tests.


Oliver wanting to just leave Thea in the simulation also seemed kind of weird. I think it would have been OK if it was an alternate timeline or something like that, but leaving his little sister in the hands of aggressive invading aliens with no real idea of what exactly they were going to do to her seemed like a really bad idea.

He didn't want to leave her there; he just realized that he couldn't force her to change her mind. So he trusted her, stepped back and gave her space to come to the right decision herself. If she hadn't done so, well, her real body was right there in the pod next to his, so once he and the others had woken up, they could still have gotten her out.

It was a lot of fun seeing Barry, Cisco, and Kara all working with the new team (minus Evelyn/Artemis).

I would've liked to see Flash and Supergirl interact more with Curtis and Rory instead of just Rene.

Hey... Did we see Barry unmasked at any point in this episode? I'm not sure if we did. I think that'd be a first, if so. We've had one Supergirl episode, "Myriad," where Benoist spent the entire episode in super-costume, so this is the second time for her (she did appear as Kara in her apartment in Part 1, though she's been exclusively Supergirl while on Earth-1 so far), but she doesn't wear a mask.
 
My first thought when I see Wild Dog in the mask is Teenage Mutant Turtles' Casey Jones. I realize now that that is actually kind of ironic, since Stephen Amell just played Jones in the second new live action TMNT movie.

They made a fourth wall breaking joke regarding that, in one of the earlier episodes this season Evelyn asks Wild Dog "What kind of hero wears a hockey mask?" and Oliver jumps in and says "I think it's cool." ;)
 
They made a fourth wall breaking joke regarding that, in one of the earlier episodes this season Evelyn asks Wild Dog "What kind of hero wears a hockey mask?" and Oliver jumps in and says "I think it's cool." ;)

Oh, I totally missed that reference.
 
Please don't hate me, but I sort of am starting to ship Barry/Kara. :luvlove::D

Bara? Karry?

Have they ever been a thing in the comics by any chance? :biggrin:
 
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