Are There Sentient Animals?

[Amaris]

Axiom,

How do you define feel and perceive objectively? It might sound dumb, but it's a rational question.

It doesn't sound dumb. For my purposes in this thread, to feel and perceive objectively means to be actively aware of your environment and it's effect on your self, that you recognize your self as a component of your environment, but also detached from it as an objective observer.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Axiom,

What animals would you say fit that profile?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Even those who believe in the sentient animal still won't give up those baby back ribs.

If some other animal wants to start farming and butchering humans, I will let them. It's only fair.

DOLPHINS EVOLVE OPPOSABLE THUMBS

"Oh shit!" Says Humanity​

Gimme them baby back ribs.

 

[Davros]

Humans

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I extend my sense of what constitutes a "person" to cover dolphins, elephants and great apes. I'll butcher a cow for meat anytime (as long as it's done "humanely", of course), but I consider killing a dolphin, elephant or ape murder. What I've read leads me to believe they are sapient. I'd therefore extend a form of legal protection based on some sort of "right to life" to these animals. Of course, there are several problems. For example, pigs are said to be highly intelligent. They don't make my list, but is that simply because I want to justify my eating pork? And Chimpanzees sometimes kill and eat human children. If chimps have full "rights" to life but no responsibilities to honour it back (you're not going to drag a chimp to court, are you?), doesn't that in some way place the protection of their children above our own? A possibly silly question, I know, but someone will point it out if right to life is extended to chimps, I'm sure.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Sorry!

 

[DevilEyes]

Even those who believe in the sentient animal still won't give up those baby back ribs.

Actually, this may come as a surprise, but there are stories and rumors about one mysterious, quirky, freaky group of humans that allegedly don't eat meat. Apparently they call themselves "vegetarians". It has been postulated that they might have been genetically altered or given special drugs that allow them to survive on other foods, without going crazy with bloodlust after such a diet and running into the street screaming and looking for the first animal to rip apart and gobble fresh meat, as any normal human would. (There's also one even weirder subgroup who call themselves "vegans", but they are assumed to be of extraterrestrial origin.)

 

[USS Triumphant]

Regarding dolphin intelligence and self-awareness: Project Delphis

 

[CuttingEdge100]

What's the difference between "sentience" and "sapience"

CuttingEdge100

 

[Lindley]

Sentience only requires that a creature have a concept of self, and are able to perceive the world subjectively in relation to themselves. It really isn't a huge leap to suppose that some animals fit this definition.

Sapience requires the ability to make decisions with wisdom and judgment. That's still a trait limited to a (a subset of) humans, I think.

 

[Amaris]

Axiom,

What animals would you say fit that profile?

I'm not certain. I figure some Great Apes, elephants, pigs and dolphins, but I think there has to be more that really fit the description. It's one of the reasons I started the thread. I am quite curious about it.

Humans

Oh, certainly. Of course, I figured Humans as a given for the purposes of this thread. Well, most Humans.

I extend my sense of what constitutes a "person" to cover dolphins, elephants and great apes. I'll butcher a cow for meat anytime (as long as it's done "humanely", of course), but I consider killing a dolphin, elephant or ape murder. What I've read leads me to believe they are sapient. I'd therefore extend a form of legal protection based on some sort of "right to life" to these animals. Of course, there are several problems. For example, pigs are said to be highly intelligent. They don't make my list, but is that simply because I want to justify my eating pork? And Chimpanzees sometimes kill and eat human children. If chimps have full "rights" to life but no responsibilities to honour it back (you're not going to drag a chimp to court, are you?), doesn't that in some way place the protection of their children above our own? A possibly silly question, I know, but someone will point it out if right to life is extended to chimps, I'm sure.

That would make an interesting episode of Law & Order!

Actually, this may come as a surprise, but there are stories and rumors about one mysterious, quirky, freaky group of humans that allegedly don't eat meat. Apparently they call themselves "vegetarians". It has been postulated that they might have been genetically altered or given special drugs that allow them to survive on other foods, without going crazy with bloodlust after such a diet and running into the street screaming and looking for the first animal to rip apart and gobble fresh meat, as any normal human would. (There's also one even weirder subgroup who call themselves "vegans", but they are assumed to be of extraterrestrial origin.)

You speak craziness!

Actually, when I was vegan I felt fantastic, both on an ethical level and a physical one. I'm definitely heading back in that general direction. Each week I reduce my servings of meat. I figure in about two months I won't even think about it when it's finally gone.

Regarding dolphin intelligence and self-awareness: Project Delphis

Fascinating. I'll be giving that a going over.

Sentience only requires that a creature have a concept of self, and are able to perceive the world subjectively in relation to themselves. It really isn't a huge leap to suppose that some animals fit this definition.

Sapience requires the ability to make decisions with wisdom and judgment. That's still a trait limited to a (a subset of) humans, I think.

That's an interesting extension of the original question, whether the possibility exists that any particular animal may be approaching sapience. THAT would be a game changer.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Sentient? Every cat I've ever "owned" has played me like a fiddle.

 

[Pauln6]

Apparently magpies can recognise their reflections too, as can apes (but not monkeys). I think whales generally can recognise their reflections rather than just dolphins although I suspect that most research has been conducted on dolphins, porpoises, and killer whales. Many animals can be trained to problem solve or do tricks based on operant conditioning (i.e. rewarding desired behaviour) although dogs can also recognise human speech to the extent that they can pick up specific objects when commanded.

I will admit that the slaughter of whales makes me very uneasy. They are smart animals - sort of like harpooning an eight year old. Seems wicked to me.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Iguana Tonante,

The question is once an animal reaches a certain level of sentience, should it matter from an moral and ethical perspective if they possess a greater degree?

I'm not sure I understand the question. I suppose, in a truly enlightened culture about bioethics, there could be degrees of "rights": "plants right" (not to made extinct by human actions) "animal rights" (not to be subjected to unnecessary hardships and pain), "sentient rights" (not to killed, nor to be subjected to hardships and pain), "human rights" (the one we know). I think I could agree with that, but I must say I've not devoted much thinking to that, so there may be some unintended consequences lurking somewhere.

For example, if a creature possessed a greater degree of sentience than a human being, let's say even an artificially intelligent being (it doesn't matter for the sake of the argument whether the being is natural or artificial) -- should they be considered superior from a legal, moral and ethical standpoint?

Because if they were given a label superior to humans, it could lead to such a being/machine adopting an attitude similar to one we adopt when we treat animals as beneath us.

Well, my opinion would be that, given its greater degree of intelligence, I would probably not understand its morality or its reasons. On the other hand, if it would start treating humans in ways that are against my morality, I will try and fight it, both with my reason and my action. In the absence of convincing arguments, I think it's the only possible course of action. "Because I know better" is not one of them. I guess animals agree with that, since it's not like they don't fight back when we hunt them, and bow their head to our superior intellect. If I have to be a cow, I would be a nasty, motherfucking cow!

To give a (somewhat silly) example, it might me moral for Galactus to devour the planet Earth for its own sussistance, but sure as hell I will call the Fantastic Four to stop it!

 

[DevilEyes]

You speak craziness!

Actually, when I was vegan I felt fantastic, both on an ethical level and a physical one. I'm definitely heading back in that general direction. Each week I reduce my servings of meat. I figure in about two months I won't even think about it when it's finally gone.

If I may ask, what made you go back to eating meat? I've never been a vegan, that would be too much since yoghurt, cheese and especially instant coffee with milk (can't. drink. black. coffee.) are such a crucial part of my everyday diet... But as for meat... I simply stopped eating it a few years ago and never felt any need or wish to go back to it.

(Damn! I've just blown my cover... )

 

[Amaris]

You speak craziness!

Actually, when I was vegan I felt fantastic, both on an ethical level and a physical one. I'm definitely heading back in that general direction. Each week I reduce my servings of meat. I figure in about two months I won't even think about it when it's finally gone.

If I may ask, what made you go back to eating meat? I've never been a vegan, that would be too much since yoghurt, cheese and especially instant coffee with milk (can't. drink. black. coffee.) are such a crucial part of my everyday diet... But as for meat... I simply stopped eating it a few years ago and never felt any need or wish to go back to it.

(Damn! I've just blown my cover... )

One word: bacon.
I have since broken my addiction on bacon, and even cheese as well.

 

[Jadzia]

If I may ask, what made you go back to eating meat? I've never been a vegan, that would be too much since yoghurt, cheese and especially instant coffee with milk (can't. drink. black. coffee.) are such a crucial part of my everyday diet... But as for meat... I simply stopped eating it a few years ago and never felt any need or wish to go back to it.

It was much like this for me, but I've always been very strong willed. I've never had a craving for meat, and I find it strange that many people do.

When I was 4-5 years old I was often questioning where food came from. I'd look at it on my fork and ask "what's this?", "where did it come from?", "What did it used to be?"

I felt very uneasy hearing that some of those things used to be living beings. I'd ask more questions about that, which were usually dismissed with patronising remarks "don't think about it. just eat it."

I found it all rather repelling as I thought about the ethics of farming and slaughtering other beings. And after giving up meat I began to find the smells and sights of it quite repelling too.

So it's not something I've ever faulted on, or even felt tempted to. I no longer recognise meat as food.

When I decided to become vegan, I planned to move to that slowly over the course of 3 months or so. I was afraid that I would have some cravings for things like milk chocolate or butter or a boiled egg. But two days into my reducing diet, I decided that I didn't need all that time, I was ready then, and so it happened.

 

[FordSVT]

Sometimes I wonder what 100% vegans would do if they found out there was a plant analogy to pain.

 

[Jadzia]

The most extreme vegetarian diet I've heard of is based on the belief that plants are also morally considerable, and that most fruits and seeds are also no go for pro-life reasons, in the same way that you consider an animal fetus to be morally considerable, a seed is considered equal.

The diet is limited to a few types of fruit and seeds that are genetically defunct from germinating into new plants, like seedless grapes. There may have been some additional restriction about the fruit having to fall naturally, rather than being cut from the plant. (which draws an analogue with milk being taken from a cow) but I can't really remember now.

 

[Myasishchev]

Virtually all chordates are sentient, and many invertebrates; I've always understood sentient as meaning "able to feel."

There are other animals I'd probably call sapient--namely elephants, dolphins, chimps, bonobos, and probably some other apes. These animals are pretty close to humanity in terms of raw intelligence.

But it's probably more worthwile to have a spectrum of sapience, rather than a bright-line. A good number of complex eukaryotes have the capacity for taking in and analyzing sensory information from its environment, but at the distant end of the spectrum, they're more like computers than humans. I would not eat my computer, of course, but that's because I keep my porn on there; the average fish has no such porn-archiving function, and hence is valuable as a food source.

On the closer end, you have animals that do seem to have an inner life and self-awareness, as well as emotional response.

Animals that have a certain threshold level of intelligence, I try to not kill. Accordingly, I don't eat any mammals or cephalopods, and although the issue hasn't come up, I wouldn't eat ravens or parrots. The upshot is I can't eat pepperoni and salami anymore. Let alone delicious long pig on jaunts abroad.

Now, I do still eat cheese and milk, because--and vegans should be aware of this--the main reason cows still walk this Earth, or at least this continent, is because they are economically valuable to us. I would not have much faith in the survival prospects of a feral population of cows. It's arguable whether imprisoning and exploiting them is better than extinction, of course.