doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
...and sadly, most of them post here. 
Approaching holidays...are we thinking the same thing?
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
My god such a long opening post
I agree 100% with your sentiments
My shop will be decorated for Christmas this year, corporate be damned!
I agree 100% with your sentiments
My shop will be decorated for Christmas this year, corporate be damned!
Honestly, if you're not in a minority that doesn't celebrate Christmas (or Hannukah for that matter) I think it's hard to appreciate what it's like.
I'm afraid you may have missed the point, though unfortunately it was due to the fact that the place I lived at that time, I cannot say there was very much in the way of proper racial integration (which I do fault that town for...one thing I can't stand about the northeast: people live so separate from each other that they're in separate towns--give...me...a break!). One was pretty much going to be a Christian, Jewish, or perhaps not celebrate a holiday. But what small diversity there was, was recognized.
I would welcome, for instance, the opportunity to see what a Diwali celebration looks like, get to know the customs and traditions, and learn more. Where I work right now, I am in a more diverse workplace, and have a better opportunity to do that learning.
I don't think that telling others they can't express themselves is the way to handle it, though. If you believe, as I do, that all people deserve respect and free self-expression, then majority and minority both should enjoy that privilege. I don't think the solution is for anyone to be in the closet. Have something different to offer from what you see around you? Please share.
I would welcome, for instance, the opportunity to see what a Diwali celebration looks like, get to know the customs and traditions, and learn more. Where I work right now, I am in a more diverse workplace, and have a better opportunity to do that learning.
I don't think that telling others they can't express themselves is the way to handle it, though. If you believe, as I do, that all people deserve respect and free self-expression, then majority and minority both should enjoy that privilege. I don't think the solution is for anyone to be in the closet. Have something different to offer from what you see around you? Please share.
I don't think telling others not to express themselves is the best solution either, but as that encompasses a wide variety of situations, it may be the best available at times. I was simply responding to your experience singing Hanukkah sings and how it didn't bother you. I think that's great, don't get me wrong. I just am trying to explain that it can be easier to feel secure or comfortable in others expressions of their culture when you are yourself in the majority.
A
Amaris
Guest
I understand what you mean, though I've never been a fan of "since I don't like it, you can't do it". It smells too much of zero tolerance, and I strongly dislike zero tolerance (not saying you advocate this, of course).
I've always figured the idea "express yourself within reason" is the best way to go. Wear a Christmasy type shirt, have a little Menorah pencil sharpener on your desk (I would so totally have one), and so on. As I said in the Christmas thread, a 6 ft tall statue of Jesus asking sinners to repent would be way overboard, and rightfully denied, but reasonable, small elements of expression harm no one.
^ like this, for example 
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba8vhha6jU0[/yt]
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba8vhha6jU0[/yt]
Kestra, I hear what you're saying and I'm sure you've had to deal with some assholes and ignorant people, but I think the way you address one side feeling threatened isn't by turning around and in effect threatening the other so that it becomes "because you're in a majority, don't get too loud or else," which is what in an extreme situation can occur. The law of hatchet, axe, and saw isn't the way to handle it, to borrow from an awesome Rush song. All that does is create a tit-for-tat where the pain and resentment never stop because one side will always have a laundry list of offenses to remember from the other. In the current environment, I can't say I feel 100% comfortable either.
At least where I live now, I'm in a very contentious town where a false accusation is right around the corner if you make (for instance) a customer-service screw-up at the wrong time. Fortunately religion is not an issue around here, but race is. A person belonging to a traditional majority is far more likely to be accused or sued (or their company sued) when they either did nothing wrong, or just frakked up because they frakked up, and were unlucky enough to do so with someone who was looking at skin color instead of the mistake in and of itself. Such accusations have happened to me more than once (bad enough to be driven to tears and barely hold it together until I got off the sales floor) and I have had to defuse such situations where my co-workers got caught in that with a customer too. So people in a majority group are often made uncomfortable in their own way, if a tit-for-tat environment exists.
Given that, I think the only thing that should be suppressed is if one group starts attacking another. But suppressing people--any people--who are not engaging in group or personal attacks, is something that makes me extremely, extremely uneasy as part of my experience. I do have an experience too, and I am not saying this to attack your viewpoint at all but to illustrate that there is more than one side to the story, and I think both have to be equally acknowledged as valid before any progress can be made.
That is part of the background of where my "celebrate all" approach comes from...because I think that's the way everyone, whether minority or majority, can grow together and appreciate each other.
At least where I live now, I'm in a very contentious town where a false accusation is right around the corner if you make (for instance) a customer-service screw-up at the wrong time. Fortunately religion is not an issue around here, but race is. A person belonging to a traditional majority is far more likely to be accused or sued (or their company sued) when they either did nothing wrong, or just frakked up because they frakked up, and were unlucky enough to do so with someone who was looking at skin color instead of the mistake in and of itself. Such accusations have happened to me more than once (bad enough to be driven to tears and barely hold it together until I got off the sales floor) and I have had to defuse such situations where my co-workers got caught in that with a customer too. So people in a majority group are often made uncomfortable in their own way, if a tit-for-tat environment exists.
Given that, I think the only thing that should be suppressed is if one group starts attacking another. But suppressing people--any people--who are not engaging in group or personal attacks, is something that makes me extremely, extremely uneasy as part of my experience. I do have an experience too, and I am not saying this to attack your viewpoint at all but to illustrate that there is more than one side to the story, and I think both have to be equally acknowledged as valid before any progress can be made.
That is part of the background of where my "celebrate all" approach comes from...because I think that's the way everyone, whether minority or majority, can grow together and appreciate each other.
Okay, it's time for a serious post.
I don't want Christmas decorations in stores I go to. Wintery decorations? Sure. But no nativity scenes or any other religious symbols, thanks.
Now I'm a straight white man who comes from a middle class home. Oppressed is the last thing that I am. America is pretty much built for people like myself. There is, however, one thing that stands out: I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any gods and I don't believe religious organizations are at all healthy.
"But why ruin it for the rest of us?" you ask.
I'm not. You can go all Jesus Birthday loving in your home and in your church. But please keep it out of public places. I am continuously plastered with religious stuff all the time. America is a very, very, Christian country and that can be seen in almost every aspect of American life. So please, please don't make it even worse come December.
When it comes to religion I'm a bit of an outsider, y'know? Not too many folks are atheists. I've gotten a lot of backlash for my atheism, a lot of people have decided there's something wrong with me because of it (there may well be something wrong with me but it has nothing to do with being an atheist). While Christians and Jews or Jews and Hindus differ in their beliefs about what God is and will often bicker about it, it is those that are atheist that they hold the most contempt for. This isn't me trying to make a scene; it's a statistical fact that atheists are the most distrusted minority out there.
So if your religion really is tolerant how 'bout you back off on throwing it in our faces a little, okay? I don't hang up signs that say "There's no proof Jesus was born!" in December so there's no need for religious folks to put up their stuff.
I don't want Christmas decorations in stores I go to. Wintery decorations? Sure. But no nativity scenes or any other religious symbols, thanks.
Now I'm a straight white man who comes from a middle class home. Oppressed is the last thing that I am. America is pretty much built for people like myself. There is, however, one thing that stands out: I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any gods and I don't believe religious organizations are at all healthy.
"But why ruin it for the rest of us?" you ask.
I'm not. You can go all Jesus Birthday loving in your home and in your church. But please keep it out of public places. I am continuously plastered with religious stuff all the time. America is a very, very, Christian country and that can be seen in almost every aspect of American life. So please, please don't make it even worse come December.
When it comes to religion I'm a bit of an outsider, y'know? Not too many folks are atheists. I've gotten a lot of backlash for my atheism, a lot of people have decided there's something wrong with me because of it (there may well be something wrong with me but it has nothing to do with being an atheist). While Christians and Jews or Jews and Hindus differ in their beliefs about what God is and will often bicker about it, it is those that are atheist that they hold the most contempt for. This isn't me trying to make a scene; it's a statistical fact that atheists are the most distrusted minority out there.
So if your religion really is tolerant how 'bout you back off on throwing it in our faces a little, okay? I don't hang up signs that say "There's no proof Jesus was born!" in December so there's no need for religious folks to put up their stuff.
A
Amaris
Guest
It's good that you would not put up such a sign, but it has been done:
http://www2.wjbf.com/news/2008/dec/05/christmas_display_to_contain_christmas_tree_nativi-ar-222238/
I don't really know what you're trying to prove here.
But that's exactly what you were talking about upthread, people of many faiths/non-faiths celebrating the holidays together: "If you believe, as I do, that all people deserve respect and free self-expression, then majority and minority both should enjoy that privilege. I don't think the solution is for anyone to be in the closet. Have something different to offer from what you see around you? Please share.
"So why would it be "good" for sidious to "be in the closet" about expressing his beliefs if everyone else is going over-the-top about expressing theirs?
Everyone's faith or non-faith isn't going to be equally represented. It simply doesn't work that way. In fact, there aren't always equivalents between religions and clearly the absence of religion doesn't have the same symbols, rituals, traditions, etc.
Even in the case where you can find a parallel with another religion, it's impractical to insist on everyone's faith being treated the same way.
Even in the case where you can find a parallel with another religion, it's impractical to insist on everyone's faith being treated the same way.
Why do you think I didn't bother to post an image? Too lazy, don't like it that much. The original post really wasn't that funny, but it was obviously joking, and RoJoHen took it seriously, so I had to have a little poke at his expense.
No, because this only respects religious people, not everyone.
The reason for the season? Axial tilt, why?
I'm sick of people saying "Happy Holidays", rather than calling it what it really is: Yule!
I'm betting that Christians everywhere will once again declare war on Yule, Beltane, The Solstice, Hanukkah, and every other religious holiday of the season that has the gall to not be named after Jesus.
So... Are we thinking the same thing? I'm guessing "no".
I'm sick of people saying "Happy Holidays", rather than calling it what it really is: Yule!
I'm betting that Christians everywhere will once again declare war on Yule, Beltane, The Solstice, Hanukkah, and every other religious holiday of the season that has the gall to not be named after Jesus.
So... Are we thinking the same thing? I'm guessing "no".
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