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Apollo and "the one"

^ Let's take care not to get this good thread closed, because some of what you're saying (the flavors bit) could be misconstrued as fighting words and set someone off on a religious argument. Let's not make this about religion per se. It's about Star Trek.
 
I know it comes as a surprise to some fans, but Bill Shatner and Jim Kirk are not actually the same guy. Besides, we know Kirk has been to a Christmas party, but have never heard of him attending Passover or lighting candles for Hanukkah.

To be fair, attending a workplace Christmas party is hardly a religious observance.. In my experience,those are more about company morale and free food and booze than making a statement of faith. :)
 
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^ Let's take care not to get this good thread closed, because some of what you're saying (the flavors bit) could be misconstrued as fighting words and set someone off on a religious argument. Let's not make this about religion per se. It's about Star Trek.

Wasn't my intention to ruffle anyone's feathers. The most cursory knowledge of the history involved shows the connections so it didn't occur to me that there could be any controversy. My apologies if I upset anyone.

To be fair, attending a workplace Christmas party is hardly a religious observation. In my experience,those are more about company morale and free food and booze than making a statement of faith. :)

Quite true. My point was merely that we do indeed have to grasp at straws if trying to establish Kirk's religious background and the thin whispers of evidence we do have point faintly more towards Christian than not.

But, as always your mileage may vary.

--Alex
 
There seems to be a general assumption that Jewish actors are only capable of playing Jews..

dJE
Hardly... a lot of the most memorable portrayals of Nazis are by Jewish actors. In Mel Brooks' case that's definitely an "Up yours, I'm alive and ridiculing you..."
 
I was more interested in what was under thirty-foot toga number one, but who wasn't? Anyway, Kirk states his claim so dryly that perhaps he is also being sarcastic over "the one", or that he practices a monotheistic religion - or, indeed, is very well a Christian. The '60s Enterprise does have a chapel. If memory serves it was used in "Balance of Terror" and "The Tholian Web".
 
100%. I'm not religious, but my interpretation of Trek's future has never been "humans grew out of believing in God", but rather, that in Trek's society everyone would accept each other's differences of opinion. I conceive of the Enterprise being a mix of people of various faiths, alongside people of no faith, intermingling because they celebrate their differences rather than fighting over them. That seems to also be more in the spirit of Star Trek than the notion that Earth religions are all banned anyway :D

I like both notions you presented. :)

Even Star Trek 5 doesn't dispute the existence of a God, it merely has James T. Kirk confronting a false one ;)

That didn't stop the claims of "controversy!" in 1989 either.
 
The line doesn't appear in the final draft (5/15/67) but it does appear in the revised final (5/23/67) and all subsequent drafts.

And it's "the One," not "the one," in all drafts where it appears.

The archival record here is frustratingly incomplete.

Broadcast standards sent their standard memo on 5/12/67 with a list of changes to make. We know that memo exists because it’s mentioned by a later one, but no copy exists at UCLA. It’s unclear what draft this was in reference to, but it’s probably the 5/8/67 draft rewritten by Gene Coon that’s mentioned in a few memos.

Broadcast standards then sent a follow-up memo on 5/22/67 in regards to the 5/15/67 final draft. Interestingly, this memo indicates that no changes were needed beyond those already advised in their 5/12/67 memo. That would suggest, based on all the other memos I’ve seen from broadcast standards, that they were actually fine with this draft — which you indicate doesn’t have “the One” line in it. But, depending on how you read the language, this leaves open the possibility that they had objected to a Kirk line in the 5/8/67 draft and that objection still stood.

I may have asked this before, but what was Kirk’s line before it was revised with language about “the One?”
 
Here's the entire scene in the 5/15/67 draft:

MED. ANGLE IN TEMPLE
Apollo beckons for Carolyn to come closer, extending
his hand. She hesitates. Kirk gives an almost
imperceptible nod. She moves forward to his side,
takes his hand. He eyes her very warmly. Then he
looks at Kirk, and his face hardens.

APOLLO
I know you are trying to escape.
It is useless. I know all you
do. I have not punished you
for it because of my compassion
for your kind.

KIRK
(dryly)
Thanks. How can we show our
appreciation?

APOLLO
(ignoring the sarcasm)
I will release your transporter
beam. You will immediately
start beaming the rest of your
people down. They may bring with
them such personal effects as
they desire. Be sure your
artisans bring tools and other
equipment. You will need homes
and shelter.

KIRK
And where will we get the supplies?

APOLLO
You will dismantle your ship...
and seven days from now I will
crush what is left of it.
(beat)
I have been patient. I will be
patient no longer.
(at Carolyn)
Come.

With that, both he and Carolyn begin to dissolve, to
fade out again. Kirk takes an angry step forward,
but by that time they are gone.
 
Hardly... a lot of the most memorable portrayals of Nazis are by Jewish actors.

This is so true! The German actor Anton Diffring was Jewish and was probably the quintessential Nazi in most of the fifties and sixties! He was born Alfred Pollack and fled Germany in 1936 not just because of his Jewish ancestry but he was gay as well! He took his name from his Mother and she was a Christian so he may not have followed the Jewish tradition but one of his final roles was as a Nazi in Doctor Who's Silver Nemesis in 1988!
JB
 
So, I just taught "Who Mourns for Adonais" in my sci fi class, today.

I was surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't have been), by the level of interest in Kirk's line: "Mankind has no need for gods. We find the one quite adequate."

Curious what those here make of this line.

It was to be taken as expressed: Kirk believes in God and his "we" means the rest of humanity does as well. I've said this before, but contrary to some who I would describe as militant atheists pushing an agenda, TOS was not anti-religion at all, with several characters clearly expressing their faith, including McCoy and Uhura. TOS was clear in Kirk having no tolerance for false gods, as seen in his challenges to Apollo and Gary Mitchell:

To Mitchell:

"A god, but still driven by human frailty. Do you like what you see?"


"One jealous god. if all this makes a god, or is it making you something else?"

In all rational sense, he's challenging and mocking the idea of an enhanced human calling himself / acting as that which he could never be.

...and of course, this continues in "Who Mourns for Adonais"--

"We find the one quite sufficient"

Again, Kirk draws that line in the sand, as he will never see anyone--not former friend altered by an energy barrier, or a creature using devices to play deity (Apollo, and you can throw Trelane into that category).

I vaguely remember some explanation in later fandom and/or fanon that "The One" was the proper name of some particular philosophy (possibly humanistic) that humans of the 23rd century subscribed to. But an American audience of the 1960s would have understood the line as referring to monotheism of the Judeo-Christian type. No doubt it was included to acquiesce to network censors and their desires to not alienate certain segments of the viewing audience.

I've never found any evidence of this added to please network censors or certain audiences. One, there was no NBC (or sponsor) obligation to introduce or refer to Christianity in TOS at all--IOW, Roddenberry's hands were not forced, otherwise, I'm sure the anti-religion-in-TOS individuals would have produced this evidence at any time over the past 52 years to accompany the wealth of other network & staff papers and accounts in relation to the production of TOS. Two, other 60s sci-fi series, such as The Outer Limits, and Land of the Giants featured characters who were similar to Apollo, and asserted their superiority over humans, but there was no network demand that a Christian belief needed to be added either for basic acknowledgement / pleasing any demographic, or as a counter to the villain of the week.

Additionally, as much as a series like Bewitched (ABC, 1964-72) was constantly attacked by various groups for allegedly promoting witchcraft, Ashmont (the series production company formed by William Asher & Elizabeth Montgomery), or Screen Gems were not pressured by ABC to add Christian themes, character beliefs to act as a counter to the nose twitching, hand waving, spell-casting antics of Samantha Stevens, Endora, Doctor Bombay, Aunt Clara, or anyone else. In other words, there was no pro-Christian network agenda, and of all TV series, if one accused of selling the dark "art" of witchcraft was not pressured, I seriously doubt it happened in the way imagined in the TOS case. If religious belief appeared on TOS, it was likely due to the characters expressing it because they were conceived to be that way, so stories could--and did have faith references that were not out of place in that world, or to established characters.

Again, TOS had characters naturally believing in God and/or the Christian faith, which was referred to when relevant, with Kirk always willing to beak down the pretenders. This was a consistent character trait carried over to The Final Frontier when Kirk uttered his famous "What does God need with a Starship?" line. Its his same, traditional challenge to false gods, because he believes in the real "one", as pointed out to Apollo.
 
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Every time Kirk met a being professing to be God, he took it upon himself to bust their a** and bring 'em back down to earth! Or whatever type of planet they were on in the first place!
JB
 
It was to be taken as expressed: Kirk believes in God and his "we" means the rest of humanity does as well. I've said this before, but contrary to some who I would describe as militant atheists pushing an agenda, TOS was not anti-religion at all, with several characters clearly expressing their faith, including McCoy and Uhura. TOS was clear in Kirk having no tolerance for false gods, as seen in his challenges to Apollo and Gary Mitchell:

To Mitchell:

"A god, but still driven by human frailty. Do you like what you see?"


"One jealous god. if all this makes a god, or is it making you something else?"

In all rational sense, he's challenging and mocking the idea of an enhanced human calling himself / acting as that which he could never be.

...and of course, this continues in "Who Mourns for Adonais"--

"We find the one quite sufficient"

Again, Kirk draws that line in the sand, as he will never see anyone--not former friend altered by an energy barrier, or a creature using devices to play deity (Apollo, and you can throw Trelane into that category).



I've never found any evidence of this added to please network censors or certain audiences. One, there was no NBC (or sponsor) obligation to introduce or refer to Christianity in TOS at all--IOW, Roddenberry's hands were not forced, otherwise, I'm sure the anti-religion-in-TOS individuals would have produced this evidence at any time over the past 52 years to accompany the wealth of other network & staff papers and accounts in relation to the production of TOS. Two, other 60s sci-fi series, such as The Outer Limits, and Land of the Giants featured characters who were similar to Apollo, and asserted their superiority over humans, but there was no network demand that a Christian belief needed to be added either for basic acknowledgement / pleasing any demographic, or as a counter to the villain of the week.

Additionally, as much as a series like Bewitched (ABC, 1964-72) was constantly attacked by various groups for allegedly promoting witchcraft, Ashmont (the series production company formed by William Asher & Elizabeth Montgomery), or Screen Gems were not pressured by ABC to add Christen themes, character beliefs to act as a counter to the nose twitching, hand waving, spell-casting antics of Samantha Stevens, Endora, Doctor Bombay, Aunt Clara, or anyone else. In other words, there was no pro-Christian network agenda, and of all TV series, if one accused of selling the dark "art" of witchcraft was not pressured, I seriously doubt it happened in the way imagined in the TOS case. If religious belief appeared on TOS, it was likely due to the characters expressing it because they were conceived to be that way, so stories could--and did have faith references that were not out of place in that world, or to established characters.

Again, TOS had characters naturally believing in God and/or the Christian faith, which was referred to when relevant, with Kirk always willing to beak down the pretenders. This was a consistent character trait carried over to The Final Frontier when Kirk uttered his famous "What does God need with a Starship?" line. Its his same, traditional challenge to false gods, because he believes in the real "one", as pointed out to Apollo.

I agree completely, a "like" just wasn't enough.
 
I'm not sure whether it's really addressing the real issue to question whether the characters believe in a god, or whether Trek as a whole is pro or anti christianity.

It's hardly difficult to see that religions of various sorts do exist in TOS, the existence of a chapel, the occasional religious reference, as do many "gods" throughout the galaxy and beyond. Moce forward to DS9 and sensitivity to religious beliefs as being central to a culture becomes a defining theme.

That being said it's also hardly difficult to see the humanistic themes running throughout the series where one "god like" being after another is shown to be inferior to human intellect and reason.

The question for me is more subtle than religion v atheism, it's about humanity's dependence on outside authority to justify ethical and moral decisions. Whether God exists or not isn't really a question TOS asks. What it does is examine the relationship between god and man and strongly comes down in favour of humanity having to take responsibility rather than relying on the moral or literal authority of such a being.

Where our heroes are "more evolved" they haven't necessarily stopped having religious faith, rather they have matured beyond reliance on religion and "gods" to provide justifications for their actions. They look to their own thoughts, their own ethical reasoning and own their actions, with the authority of religion being lambasted on many occasions as inadequate, childlike and childish.
 
What Trek seems to be telling us is if there is a God or was that he might be a spaceman, an entity without physical form from a race that was once human, a computer programmed by a long dead race of superior humans, or even a formless creature that feeds upon our hopes and dreams and hatreds! Nothing is confirmed or denied or guessed at! It's all left up to us the viewers!
JB
 
Where our heroes are "more evolved" they haven't necessarily stopped having religious faith, rather they have matured beyond reliance on religion and "gods" to provide justifications for their actions.

For the true believer, there's no walled separation between faith, its representation / history recorded in the word, and its natural application (your "reliance") in daily life. Its no meme, platitude printed on the side of a Starbucks cup, fortune cookie message or expression (e.g. "good luck"), superstition (like avoiding stepping on sidewalk cracks, etc.) boiled down to what one would have as the equivalent of cultural background noise which has no longer has direct or practical guiding for / meaning in life. To that end, Kirk's "one" line to Apollo was his statement of fact--a direct (and very Kirk-like) counter to not only that latest false god, but letting the being know that he knows who the real God is, believes in Him, which includes how God guides life (among many things), leaving no room to be suckered by a being with "tricks" as Apollo's power is described, or for that matter, all-controlling AI like Landru and the M-5.

..and about the M-5 and its turn to murderous survival mode--what did Kirk reveal about its creator, Dr. Daystrom?

"Daystrom felt such an act was against the laws of God and man."

So, even as far as the 23rd century, one of the top scientists of the age believes in/lives by acknowledged laws imparted by God (as well as man)--not as that aforementioned cultural background noise, but as an inseparable application to/guide for life, which certainly provides motivations and justifications for how he lived his life and the ideas he programmed into the M-5.

Then, there's McCoy, who was no stranger to referring, acting (or not) based on more than the Hippocratic Oath, as in "The Immunity Syndrome", where he chides Spock's suggestion that he (McCoy and by association, the rest of humanity) would understand some mass loss of life (instead of one, which he--in typical Spock fashion--incorrectly thinks humans are only capable of) if they were to suffer the same horrible impact as the lost crew of the U.S.S. Intrepid, hence McCoy quoting a variation of Leviticus 19:17. McCoy clearly believes in living by the opposite of what Spock suggests in referring to scripture.
 
So, I just taught "Who Mourns for Adonais" in my sci fi class, today.

I was surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't have been), by the level of interest in Kirk's line: "Mankind has no need for gods. We find the one quite adequate."

Curious what those here make of this line.

He was referring to that thing on Sha’ka’ree.
 
Here's the entire scene in the 5/15/67 draft:

Interesting. So, it's not as if "We find the one quite adequate" was dropped into an existing speech, which is what you'd expect if the language was added to appease the network censors.

Any appreciable differences between the shooting script for this scene (5/29/67) and the 5/23/67 rewrite?

One other tidbit I can note -- Bob Justman's copy of the shooting script has Apollo's speech in this scene and Kirk's reply circled with "NO!" emphatically written in the margin. Was he anticipating an objection from NBC? Did he personally dislike this exchange? I don't have enough information to be able to say.
 
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