Anyone receive "These Are The Voyages..." Season 2 yet?

[Joel_Kirk]

They worked best when they had other people around them to say no or here is a better idea. Lucas sucks as a director as we have seen with the prequels. He is an excellent editor and story guy. Gene happened to but a great team together for Star Trek from the start. He was just a bull in a china shop when it came to dealing with "the system".

It is going to be interesting to see what happens to Star Wars now that it is part of the system. It is now where Star Trek was in the 80s. Disney is going to light that franchise up like Spock flying the Galileo 7.


Star Trek needs to get back on TV. CBS has already let Star Wars walk in Trek's territory with The Clone Wars series and now REBELS. I did hear on one of TREK.FM podcasts that Paramount actually pays CBS not to do a series. That has to stop!


-Chris

Chris everyone is crossing your fingers that Star Wars will be a success; story-wise and character-wise.

I think of Star Trek were to return to television it would have to be cable. Network television seems to be too saturated and too competitive, that any new series will have to differentiate itself for the masses and not a niche audience for it to remain past the pilot or first couple of episodes. Even on cable there is competition, but more of an opportunity to differentiate itself. Trek will still have to be produced for the masses rather than a niche audience, and the writing be a bit more higher standard.

I agree if Trek comes back it needs to do something new and different. I think it has to be more like DS9 with a continuing story. It should probably even have more than one ship / crew to follow. I would even settle for an animated series on the level of Clone Wars, some of those episodes rival the story telling in the movies. I can't wait for REBELS to start.


-Chris

Clone Wars brought Star Wars to another level with the drama. Thankfully, it didn't focus just on Anakin, but a group of characters...specifically, the clones. The show brought humanity to said clones, who became some of my favorite characters, and had me getting emotional because they had feelings...yet, were used as cannon fodder.

I am also looking forward to Rebels, and hope that the show follows up on some unanswered bits that weren't covered in the final season of Clone Wars.

 

[Ssosmcin]

If NBC didn't promote the series on air during season two or three, then what's this? A fan creation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFVbaGpv9A

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier, but didn’t provide a video link. From what I’ve read, so far he only says NBC didn’t promote the series in the second season (anyone can correct me if I missed a 3rd season mention in the book). These clips are from pretty late in the season, which – to me – indicates that it could have been made for summer reruns or to promote the upcoming third season. There is no timeslot mentioned, perhaps allowing the affiliates to do their own on air announcements.

There is one other promo clips that has very early 2nd season episodes, which to me suggests there was at least one promo made for the year. Even though the person posting this says it’s the second season, Shatner looks way too young and slender for it to be later (unless it was held back).

http://youtu.be/WQW3dfW2kyg

 

[cbspock]

It does seem like NBC really didn't know what to make of Star Trek. Robertson knew what he wanted out of it, and made those demands on the production however there was conflict over what could be done for the money they had. Also, since the network would not totally commit to full seasons, and dragged out decisions for a "go" it really put the production team behind the eight ball. It's like they could never settle into a routine or get ahead of the production curve, they were always struggling.

I also think Shatner got a raw deal with his fellow cast members ripping on him. I can see where the conflict came from in the second season, there was a lot going on with Shatner personally and politics going on behind the scenes due to some of Nimoy's demands.

It does seem in the second season Checkov was a big hit, and managed to get more screen time because the writers liked the character and George wasn't around at the time to get parts originally written for Sulu.


-Chris

 

[CrazyMatt]

If NBC didn't promote the series on air during season two or three, then what's this? A fan creation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFVbaGpv9A

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier, but didn’t provide a video link. From what I’ve read, so far he only says NBC didn’t promote the series in the second season (anyone can correct me if I missed a 3rd season mention in the book). These clips are from pretty late in the season, which – to me – indicates that it could have been made for summer reruns or to promote the upcoming third season. There is no timeslot mentioned, perhaps allowing the affiliates to do their own on air announcements.

There is one other promo clips that has very early 2nd season episodes, which to me suggests there was at least one promo made for the year. Even though the person posting this says it’s the second season, Shatner looks way too young and slender for it to be later (unless it was held back).

http://youtu.be/WQW3dfW2kyg

It seems NBC did promote some episodes, such as "Amok Time," with promotional pictures. Too bad they didn't do this for more episodes.

 

[CrazyMatt]

It does seem like NBC really didn't know what to make of Star Trek. Robertson knew what he wanted out of it, and made those demands on the production however there was conflict over what could be done for the money they had. Also, since the network would not totally commit to full seasons, and dragged out decisions for a "go" it really put the production team behind the eight ball. It's like they could never settle into a routine or get ahead of the production curve, they were always struggling.

I think NBC liked Star Trek's uniqueness and overall quality, and was in a continual "hope" mode that Star Trek would blossom into a solid hit. Since it never did, they decided to hedge their bets by not ordering a full compliment of episodes right from the beginning of each of the first two broadcast seasons.

I also think Shatner got a raw deal with his fellow cast members ripping on him. I can see where the conflict came from in the second season, there was a lot going on with Shatner personally and politics going on behind the scenes due to some of Nimoy's demands.

Shatner was clearly paranoid at all the attention Nimoy (and Nimoy's character) was getting, including multiple Emmy nominations... nominations that Shatner wasn't getting. How interesting to see how this seemed to come to a head on my favorite episode, "The Doomsday Machine," where Shatner resorted to making significant script changes to keep his lines more numerous than Nimoy's. William Windom commented several times how unharmonious the cast was during that particular episode, driven mostly by Shatner's actions.

 

[Forbin]

Oh, and I loved Windom's final analysis of the whole TV-series-making process: "Basically it's a lot of crap."

 

[Ssosmcin]

Personally, I don’t blame Shatner for counting lines and being paranoid. TV history is full of series where a breakout background character catches on and then takes over. Shatner, a hugely popular and respected actor on the cusp of a major success, was hired to be the hero, the lead, the primary star of an adventure series. The network was not emphasizing Spock, so it was primarily a series about Captain Kirk and his crew. Then Spock caught on in a big way.

Meanwhile, over on CBS, Lost in Space, that other Space Show they kept comparing themselves to, saw its lead actors totally sidelined by a last minute addition to the cast. Yep, the creepy, screaming old man, who was dead last in the credits, became the breakout character who not only got the most audience response, but totally stole the series away from everyone else. This was all happening while Trek was getting started and exploded by the time the first season was well into production. They were very much aware of Lost in Space and I’m sure Shatner didn’t want to see his position and his career hit the skids.

To give them credit, the producers were also well aware of the need to “keep it about Kirk” and Roddenberry always made sure Shatner was the star. But the audience loved Spock, so they did what they could to satisfy both parties and the audience: play up the friendship and make them a team. It was now about "Kirk, Spock and the crew" (later to be "Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the crew"). Honestly, though, for Shatner, anything other than what he started with would be seen as compromise. So he was a dick sometimes. He was the series' heavy hitter and he knew it.

It may not have been a good working environment and even crappy to do, but I get it. I’m sure the casts of Happy Days and Family Matters wished one of them took a similar stand. Tom Bosley should have taken more or Erin Moran’s lines.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I think NBC liked Star Trek's uniqueness and overall quality, and was in a continual "hope" mode that Star Trek would blossom into a solid hit. Since it never did, they decided to hedge their bets by not ordering a full compliment of episodes right from the beginning of each of the first two broadcast seasons.

Seems reasonable.

 

[Melakon]

I'm not certain, but it's possible those weekly "Next time on Star Trek" previews were also being aired through the week instead of any specially created overall promotional ads for the show. It was fairly common practice on all three networks then.

Meanwhile, over on CBS, Lost in Space, that other Space Show they kept comparing themselves to, saw its lead actors totally sidelined by a last minute addition to the cast.

I think a better analogy is what happened only a few years earlier on NBC with The Man from U.N.C.L.E. Robert Vaughn was the star and main character. But the mysterious blond Russian guy became the breakout character and made David McCallum a star. I don't recall any major blowups between them, but fan magazines of the time were always trying to say there was some sort of feud going on.

And over on Batman, novice actor Burt Ward was seeing how far he could play Big Star and butting heads with the more experienced Adam West.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Meanwhile, over on CBS, Lost in Space, that other Space Show they kept comparing themselves to, saw its lead actors totally sidelined by a last minute addition to the cast. Yep, the creepy, screaming old man, who was dead last in the credits, became the breakout character who not only got the most audience response, but totally stole the series away from everyone else. This was all happening while Trek was getting started and exploded by the time the first season was well into production. They were very much aware of Lost in Space and I’m sure Shatner didn’t want to see his position and his career hit the skids.

Now I'm trying to imagine Shatner reciting the line, "Oh the pain... the pain."

 

[Forbin]

Now I'm trying to imagine Shatner reciting the line, "Oh the pain... the pain."

More dramatic pauses, I think: "Oh. The pain. The... Pain."

 

[cbspock]

Also, while the Friday night at 10pm time slot was a bad one, I think it's a little simplistic to dismiss the whole night as a bad one for network ratings. After all, the dreaded Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. was the #3 show on television during the 1967-68 network season, and it aired on Friday night at 8:30 (opposite Star Trek).

The broadcast season before (66-67), Tarzan had been a success (#27) on Friday nights at 7:30, and Hogan's Heroes had done even better in the 8:30 timeslot (#17).

I think the rational for that being a bad time-slot was that adults and young adults were out on Friday nights and the youger folks that would watch Gomer Pyle and Tarzan would be in bed by then or at least not be able to stay up until 11:00 to watch the entire show. Back in the late 60's this was a horrible time for a show to be on. Not so much anymore (I believe that the new Battlestar Galactica had that exact time slot and it was a huge success).

X-Files took on that time slot in the 90s and it was a huge hit

-Chris

 

[cbspock]

If NBC didn't promote the series on air during season two or three, then what's this? A fan creation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFVbaGpv9A

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier, but didn’t provide a video link. From what I’ve read, so far he only says NBC didn’t promote the series in the second season (anyone can correct me if I missed a 3rd season mention in the book). These clips are from pretty late in the season, which – to me – indicates that it could have been made for summer reruns or to promote the upcoming third season. There is no timeslot mentioned, perhaps allowing the affiliates to do their own on air announcements.

There is one other promo clips that has very early 2nd season episodes, which to me suggests there was at least one promo made for the year. Even though the person posting this says it’s the second season, Shatner looks way too young and slender for it to be later (unless it was held back).

http://youtu.be/WQW3dfW2kyg

It seems NBC did promote some episodes, such as "Amok Time," with promotional pictures. Too bad they didn't do this for more episodes.

NBC completely blew off Bread and Circuses because they didn't like the dig at them. It however it had the highest ratings of the season. It was like NBC was speaking out both sides of their mouthes. They liked the show on one hand then did everything they could to subvert it.


-Chris

 

[Warped9]

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier, but didn’t provide a video link. From what I’ve read, so far he only says NBC didn’t promote the series in the second season (anyone can correct me if I missed a 3rd season mention in the book). These clips are from pretty late in the season, which – to me – indicates that it could have been made for summer reruns or to promote the upcoming third season. There is no timeslot mentioned, perhaps allowing the affiliates to do their own on air announcements.

There is one other promo clips that has very early 2nd season episodes, which to me suggests there was at least one promo made for the year. Even though the person posting this says it’s the second season, Shatner looks way too young and slender for it to be later (unless it was held back).

http://youtu.be/WQW3dfW2kyg

It seems NBC did promote some episodes, such as "Amok Time," with promotional pictures. Too bad they didn't do this for more episodes.

NBC completely blew off Bread and Circuses because they didn't like the dig at them. It however it had the highest ratings of the season. It was like NBC was speaking out both sides of their mouthes. They liked the show on one hand then did everything they could to subvert it.


-Chris

Yeah, it does seem that way.

 

[cbspock]

Personally, I don’t blame Shatner for counting lines and being paranoid. TV history is full of series where a breakout background character catches on and then takes over. Shatner, a hugely popular and respected actor on the cusp of a major success, was hired to be the hero, the lead, the primary star of an adventure series. The network was not emphasizing Spock, so it was primarily a series about Captain Kirk and his crew. Then Spock caught on in a big way.

Meanwhile, over on CBS, Lost in Space, that other Space Show they kept comparing themselves to, saw its lead actors totally sidelined by a last minute addition to the cast. Yep, the creepy, screaming old man, who was dead last in the credits, became the breakout character who not only got the most audience response, but totally stole the series away from everyone else. This was all happening while Trek was getting started and exploded by the time the first season was well into production. They were very much aware of Lost in Space and I’m sure Shatner didn’t want to see his position and his career hit the skids.

To give them credit, the producers were also well aware of the need to “keep it about Kirk” and Roddenberry always made sure Shatner was the star. But the audience loved Spock, so they did what they could to satisfy both parties and the audience: play up the friendship and make them a team. It was now about "Kirk, Spock and the crew" (later to be "Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the crew"). Honestly, though, for Shatner, anything other than what he started with would be seen as compromise. So he was a dick sometimes. He was the series' heavy hitter and he knew it.

It may not have been a good working environment and even crappy to do, but I get it. I’m sure the casts of Happy Days and Family Matters wished one of them took a similar stand. Tom Bosley should have taken more or Erin Moran’s lines.

There was an interesting comment that Black made he understood the needs of the actors where Coon really didn't or couldn't be bothered. So Coon's inattention to the problem or handling of it made it worse.



-Chris

 

[Warped9]

This is one of the things I like about these books, that they don't lionize the individuals and yet don't demonize them either. These were were multifaceted individuals. Gene Roddenberry could be a dick and yet he had good ideas and could motivate individuals. He did a lot of hard work behind just coming up with the basic concept. Certainly not everything he did was gold, but he did a lot more than just the basics. He also had the right to rewrite and rework things so they were consistent with what he wanted put on the air, a point that John D.F. Black doesn't agree with, but it's the truth.

Gene Coon had some really good ideas that added to the tapestry of Star Trek, but he could also take shortcuts in reusing gimmcks that had already been done more than once. He was great at dialogue, but also could do things counter to what Roddenberry intended for the series. Those jokey episodes are now identified as part of Star Trek, but seeing behind the scenes we get the picture they were the exceptions and certainly not meant to take the show in a new direction. Indeed if it had than TOS might have become more like the Irwin Allen sci-fi's and The Man From U.N.C.L.E. So I credit GR with pulling TOS back away from that, and even though the third season could be rough at least they didn't descend into blatant and nonstop camp and absurdity.

Fontana and Justman are really the only ones (so far) who have escaped critical observations. Both could being acerbic and cynical in their memos, but they also seemed to be using sarcasm to get their points across.

I do agree the Justman felt rightly slighted when John Meredyth Lucas was brought in to replace Coon instead of Justman simply being promoted. We haven't gotten any explanation for that.

I'm really looking forward to reading Volume 3.

 

[cbspock]

Great points Warped9. It did seem odd that they just didn't promote Justman into Coon's spot. Maybe Roddenberry felt Justman was exactly in the spot he needed to be in. I too am looking forward to Volume 3. I think if it wasn't for the two Genes, Justman, and DC we wouldn't be talking about Star Trek today. I would include Robertson in that group as well. Star Trek is what is is because of all of their contributions, and not just the idea of one person.

-Chris

 

[Warped9]

Robertson does seem to make an honest effort to keep the series on point in terms of what the network expected, but I don't get much of a sense of character from him.

Another thing I find interesting is how some things the creators themselves and others at the time mighn't have thought as good as being what they wanted, but have since been embraced by the fans. It could be as simple as being close to the work and like any artist or creator being more critical of one's own work than anyone else would be.

The jokey episodes are a good example. A lot of fans embrace them even as others seeing them as being too far afield, much like Roddenberry, Fontana, Justman and Nimoy saw them.

 

[cbspock]

It is interesting that those things were later embraced on the other Trek series as well. Giving us classics like Trials and Tribbleations, Q Pid, Chaotica, etc. That is what makes the Trek format so great it can support a lot of different story types because of the writing, and the foundation those episodes are built on. They sort of understood how far it could be pushed.


-Chris

 

[Bixby]

Gene Coon had some really good ideas that added to the tapestry of Star Trek, but he could also take shortcuts in reusing gimmcks that had already been done more than once. He was great at dialogue, but also could do things counter to what Roddenberry intended for the series. Those jokey episodes are now identified as part of Star Trek, but seeing behind the scenes we get the picture they were the exceptions and certainly not meant to take the show in a new direction.

That Coon allowed some episodes of Star Trek to be more comedic than usual is just fine in my mind, as it just shows how strong a concept Star Trek actually is.

Just look at Batman: we've had the super-kitschy sci-fi 1950s Batman, the Campy Batman, the Darkknight Detective (Neal Adams) Batman, the mega-fascist Batman of Frank Miller, and so on until we now have the super Batman of today (the one who seems able to beat everybody!).

Look at other great shows like Gunsmoke, or even Buffy the Vampire Slayer, these shows often crossed all sorts of genres yet the characters stayed true.

Warped9, so what did Gene Roddenberry intend for Star Trek to be, anyway? I tend to think Roddenberry didn't really know himself completely. I mean, during the first season, he hadn't even come up with 26 whole plots before going into production, they saved themselves by splitting the Cage into a 2-parter to fill up his schedule.

I dare say it's because of Coon's brilliance that he had a different vision for Star Trek where the concept COULD be slotted into a great many storytelling genres (horror, thriller, revenge drama, comedy, satire, etc.). I give respect to Roddenberry, but I don't know if they would even have finished a second season of episodes had they kept to his narrow original concept.