Anyone Else Like Justice?

[Saito S]

Oh come on. Look how much is known about some of the more repressive countries in the world today and their punishments. You're telling me that with 24th century research tools Tasha couldn't have dug this up about their ONE punishment in ten minutes flat?


Either the Edo hide this info, which makes the "dilemma" even easier to dispense with, or Tasha is so incompetent that she should be busted down to ensign and be removed from her security chief position.

I have to agree. Either way, it's ridiculous that they somehow didn't know about this. It either reflects badly on Yar for missing it, or it reflects badly on the Edo for being duplicitous bastards that intentionally don't tell visitors that falling into a planter box will lead to their execution.

Regardless, the Edo are pretty stupid anyway, as is this entire episode. It's everything wrong with TNG's first season condensed into one 45-minute sequence of fail.

The "God ship" was one of the best things about this episode.

The concept is potentially interesting, but I don't think this episode used it very well.

The visual design of the god-ship was pretty nice. I actually liked it better when it was re-used (with more direct lighting and greater detail, since it was no longer supposed to be a god-thing) in "Conundrum."

 

[T'Girl]

I don't support the idea of executing Wes given the particular circumstances we witness

Concept might have stood up better if Wesley had accidentally killed someone. Clearly his fault, but no volition on his part, yet a native did die.

So will Picard permit Wesley, properly convicted with involuntary manslaughter, to be executed? .

 

[DonIago]

I assume you're joking, as I thought one of the points was that the crime needed to be utterly disproportionate to the punishment...

Wes killed part of my soul...does that count?
The damnedest thing is that I really liked the episodes he showed up in after he stopped being a regular, until his final appearance, which essentially undid all of the forgiveness he'd managed to accrue.

 

[Brikar99]

I assume you're joking, as I thought one of the points was that the crime needed to be utterly disproportionate to the punishment...

Except that tripping and falling into a flower bed is the most absurdly stupid "crime" the writers could have come up with. And at no point does anyone say, "Whoa, whoa, guys it was an accident!" They all completely accept that falling into a flower bed is a crime, which is just plain retarded.

I'd be much happier with the episode if Wesley had actually done something that could be even remotely considered a crime, because much of it is really interesting. But it's like the writers know they have a bullshit conceit in the episode and do everything they possibly can to try and ignore it - but it doesn't work.

 

[Saito S]

I assume you're joking, as I thought one of the points was that the crime needed to be utterly disproportionate to the punishment...

Wes killed part of my soul...does that count?

The damnedest thing is that I really liked the episodes he showed up in after he stopped being a regular, until his final appearance, which essentially undid all of the forgiveness he'd managed to accrue.

I think he honestly got a lot better in season 3. He could be a little irritating at times, but not to NEARLY the same degree as earlier. Then along came "Final Mission", which was pretty good, and he was gone. "The Game" was quite good, and "The First Duty" was fantastic, easily the best Wesley episode.

And then "Journey's End"... the less said about that, the better.

 

[The Overlord]

I assume you're joking, as I thought one of the points was that the crime needed to be utterly disproportionate to the punishment...

Except that tripping and falling into a flower bed is the most absurdly stupid "crime" the writers could have come up with. And at no point does anyone say, "Whoa, whoa, guys it was an accident!" They all completely accept that falling into a flower bed is a crime, which is just plain retarded.

I'd be much happier with the episode if Wesley had actually done something that could be even remotely considered a crime, because much of it is really interesting. But it's like the writers know they have a bullshit conceit in the episode and do everything they possibly can to try and ignore it - but it doesn't work.

Yeah, that's not a crime, that's a minor tort at best. This isn't a real moral dilemma, in modern times many countries often try defend the rights of their citizens visiting other countries to protect them from unfair persecution by local authorities. Why wouldn't the Enterprise do the same thing for their crew?

 

[Timo]

falling into a flower bed is a crime

Good point, as Yar seemed to specifically say that the local definitions of crime are not out of the ordinary. This is in direct contradiction of that assertion, even if we forget all about the nature of punishment.

Why wouldn't the Enterprise do the same thing for their crew?

Because this is science fiction? This would have been one of the rare times where the show could have demonstrated the reputed "evolved moral sensibilities". It never erred when it gave us heroes who behaved deplorably in the traditional "negative" direction (Worf and Riker both being vicious murderers) - the heroes only became more popular due to their unapologetic wickedness. We might quite well have grown to like characters who behaved deplorably in what we might see as the "positive" direction (say, Picard throwing LaForge to a mental asylum for criminals for using a cussword, or leaving Wesley to die in this episode, because it's the right thing to do by 24th century standards).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

falling into a flower bed is a crime

Good point, as Yar seemed to specifically say that the local definitions of crime are not out of the ordinary. This is in direct contradiction of that assertion, even if we forget all about the nature of punishment.

Why wouldn't the Enterprise do the same thing for their crew?

Because this is science fiction? This would have been one of the rare times where the show could have demonstrated the reputed "evolved moral sensibilities". It never erred when it gave us heroes who behaved deplorably in the traditional "negative" direction (Worf and Riker both being vicious murderers) - the heroes only became more popular due to their unapologetic wickedness. We might quite well have grown to like characters who behaved deplorably in what we might see as the "positive" direction (say, Picard throwing LaForge to a mental asylum for criminals for using a cussword, or leaving Wesley to die in this episode, because it's the right thing to do by 24th century standards).

Timo Saloniemi

I didn't notice that line before from Yar. So it's basically total incompetence on her part and therefore Wesley's not at fault at all.

Again, no dilemma, actually since the whole situation is mostly Yar's fault. Rescuing Wes should have been a moral imperative. No debate at all.


How could the writers not have been able to come up with a real moral dilemma? The concept of "local laws versus UFP standards and the PD" could have made a good episode had this not been written in such a ridiculous way.

 

[Ghrakh]

falling into a flower bed is a crime

Good point, as Yar seemed to specifically say that the local definitions of crime are not out of the ordinary.

Not much different than jaywalking. You can get a ticket in some parts of the US, and in others you can walk in front of a cop car and they won't care.

Anyway, the episode suffers from pacing; it was 90% setup when it should have had more weight on the resolution.

 

[Dr. Crusher]

I think that this episode is definitely worth a re-watch. There are definitely flaws in the logic, many of which are mentioned here. However, I do think that there is a thought-provoking side to the premise.

 

[DonIago]

If memory serves, the last time I saw it, it provoked thoughts of jamming a pencil into my skull.

 

[Timo]

I have fond memories of checking out the transcript of the episode at TrekCore, only to find out that it was a final script rather than a transcript - and the point where Picard finds out that God is preventing him from beaming Wesley to safety is omitted. Picard simply escapes with Wesley, while leaving behind a great many enraged Edo.

The penultimate "Angel One" script is more entertaining... There, at the crucial moment, we find not a completed dialogue, but a "To be written" section with words to the effect "Riker makes a speech and everything is all right again".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

How could the writers not have been able to come up with a real moral dilemma? The concept of "local laws versus UFP standards and the PD" could have made a good episode had this not been written in such a ridiculous way.

So if we find a law ridiculous on someone else's soil, we should ignore it? Tell them how wrong they are to have such a law?

Justice works because of the contrast between what Starfleet and the Edo find acceptable behavior. It's up to Starfleet to get the lay of the land before putting their people on the ground for recreational purposes. Whether or not Yar flubbed the original research, it makes the Enterprise away team no less accountable to Edo law.

 

[sonak]

How could the writers not have been able to come up with a real moral dilemma? The concept of "local laws versus UFP standards and the PD" could have made a good episode had this not been written in such a ridiculous way.

So if we find a law ridiculous on someone else's soil, we should ignore it? Tell them how wrong they are to have such a law?

Justice works because of the contrast between what Starfleet and the Edo find acceptable behavior. It's up to Starfleet to get the lay of the land before putting their people on the ground for recreational purposes. Whether or not Yar flubbed the original research, it makes the Enterprise away team no less accountable to Edo law.

seriously? That's your view? Wes should give his life because he crashed into a flower bed and because Yar is apparently a moron for that week?

And yeah, what's wrong with telling them that their laws are ridiculous? They're already visiting there, so it's not like it's a non-contact situation.

Again, the "dilemma" is fake-it only got set up in the first place because Yar is either so stupid she shouldn't have graduated from the academy or the Edo deliberately lie to outsiders about their laws.


Either way, the situation presented in "Justice"= no dilemma.

 

[DWF]

Brenda Bakke!!

But seriously Riker's line at the end is memorable and important and pretty sums up the entire ep.

 

[BillJ]

And yeah, what's wrong with telling them that their laws are ridiculous? They're already visiting there, so it's not like it's a non-contact situation.

And this is TNG's legacy. Humanity grows up and treks to the stars to tell others exactly how wrong their ways are...

Gimme a break.

 

[T'Girl]

I assume you're joking, as I thought one of the points was that the crime needed to be utterly disproportionate to the punishment...

Really? I thought the purpose of the episode is that the Federation's (and Starfleet's) way of doing things was superior in every way to that of the unwashed locals, and it was perfectly fine to violate and ignore the funny little primitive's legal system.

But only after a flowery speech from Picard about The Prime Directive, of course.

 

[sonak]

And yeah, what's wrong with telling them that their laws are ridiculous? They're already visiting there, so it's not like it's a non-contact situation.

And this is TNG's legacy. Humanity grows up and treks to the stars to tell others exactly how wrong their ways are...

Gimme a break.

you mean like Kirk did in "the apple," "taste of armageddon," "the empath," "return of the archons," the cloud-minders," etc.?

gimme a break.


Oh, and if "their ways" involve a death penalty for accidentally falling into a flower bed, then they deserve to be told exactly how wrong they are.

 

[CaptainMatt]

At the time, as a pre-teenager, I was more worried with the natives exposing themselves than what Tasha did or did not do. Of course I was happy they didn't kill Wes as I liked him as a fellow child. And there is NOTHING wrong with enjoying Season One for it's optimistic future amongst the Federation and Starfleet.
That's apparently how Roddenberry liked it and who are we to second-guess the decision of the day?

 

[DonIago]

Roddenberry also liked cheating on his wife...I wouldn't exactly consider his ideals beyond reconsideration.

While it may not have been what TPTB intended, I think one way in which TNG should portray an "evolved" human over those shown in TOS is precisely by demonstrating that Kirk's tendency to assume that he/the Federation knew what was best for everyone was not especially enlightened.