Anson Mount as Pike SAVES This Show! Wow.
- Thread starter Kane_Steel
- Start date
Too many blustering warriors straight out central casting. I'll take L'Rell over those idiot Duras sisters any day of the week.Now you’ve lost me.
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In all seriousness, i wish they could have pushed back the Klingon war and given us a first season where the Federation did something that would warrant the Klingons’ fears they were losing their identity. (And let us get to know Ash so that reveal would have had more impact.)
As an aside, I’m worn out on the “honor and glory” Klingons, and I did like that Discovery tried to give the Klingons another motivation.
As an aside, I’m worn out on the “honor and glory” Klingons, and I did like that Discovery tried to give the Klingons another motivation.
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Looked on Memory Alpha at every recurring Klingon character before Discovery:
TOS: Kor, Kang, Koloth, Korax, Arne Darvin (Technically these characters mostly only as recurring because of TAS and DS9 (mostly Blood Oath and the Tribbles episode)
TOS Movies: Kamarag (though no one remembers this)
TNG: Gowron, Lursa, B'Etor, Kurn, Toral, Duras, K'Ehleyr, Alexander (Basically Worf's family and shitheels he feuds with. No one else)
DS9: Martok, Grilka (this shocked me, because DS9 had a lot of Klingon content, but much of it was one-off characters, bringing back established characters like Kor or Gowron, etc.
VOY/ENT: Absolutely no one.
TOS: Kor, Kang, Koloth, Korax, Arne Darvin (Technically these characters mostly only as recurring because of TAS and DS9 (mostly Blood Oath and the Tribbles episode)
TOS Movies: Kamarag (though no one remembers this)
TNG: Gowron, Lursa, B'Etor, Kurn, Toral, Duras, K'Ehleyr, Alexander (Basically Worf's family and shitheels he feuds with. No one else)
DS9: Martok, Grilka (this shocked me, because DS9 had a lot of Klingon content, but much of it was one-off characters, bringing back established characters like Kor or Gowron, etc.
VOY/ENT: Absolutely no one.
I do. He was a jerk.
Why should those be a different thing?
"Captain" is a generic word, applying e.g. to Harry Mudd. Being a Captain by rank in the 'Fleet is its own thing, and worth specifically pointing out, especially in the context of Pike and Kirk who both were captains without yet wearing the appropriate |:| sleeve braid.
Why would a promotion ceremony be conflated with a handover ceremony?
Kirk meeting the man would involve a relatively compact single event, such as a handshake; even if the two separate ceremonies were held the same day, they would still be separate ceremonies, only one of which would involve Kirk meeting Pike for the first time.
That Kirk answers Mendez' question about meeting the man, and then goes on about knowing additional facts of the man, seems only appropriate. Mendez is preaching to the choir about how manly a man Pike used to be, as if Kirk didn't know this; it's Kirk's turn to set the record straight and tell Mendez that the two in fact share plenty of history.
Yet with both Pike and Kirk, we get data that what is on one's sleeve does not particularly affect whether one can command a starship. Even if Fleet Captain and Captain were different ranks (and the total absence of references to the former being its own thing, having its own braid etc. seems telling), they would just be part of the club that also includes the | and || and |§| braid as appropriate for longterm starship captaincy.
And Kirk is not saying he only met Pike once. He answers Mendez' question of whether he has met the man. He doesn't need to say "Dozens of times"; a mere "Yes" suffices.
Timo Saloniemi
Suffice it to say that given the vagaries of costuming, I don't place any undue significance on sleeve braid. We know from dialogue that Pike was a Captain during "The Cage," that Kirk was a Captain during "The Menagerie" (and all of TOS), and that Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain between those two events.
Because we know Pike was a captain already when Kirk was still an ensign. Possibly when he was still a cadet. And because Fleet Captain is a term never used to refer to any of the other captains we know of, so it makes sense that it is intended to be something different.
No one is conflating ceremonies. The quote never even mentions the promotion ceremony itself. Kirk says specifically that he took command from Pike when Pike was promoted. IOW, he didn't meet him at the promotion ceremony, he met him at the time of the promotion and as a result of it.
Intriguing... Where would we learn this?
Or then the exact opposite - if there's no data on it, it may either be a marginal phenomenon or then not exist at all.
Why insist the dialogue refers to one and the same event or timeframe? Why isn't that conflating of ceremonies, when two functionally distinct ceremonial occasions are indeed being mentioned?
Absolutely not. There is no "when" there in the dialogue, and inserting a "when" there would alter the whole gist of it.
Timo Saloniemi
Someone's upset, lol. Agree to disagree man.
Pike was fantastic. Great lead, and great authoritative presence onscreen. I liked him more than Kirk (who actually make more 'bigoted' comments during his run) .
All the Captains have had anger management issues throughout their respective runs.
Captain Pike is really what this show desperately needed, but sadly may not be enough to elevate everything.
Not upset, no, just was never impressed by that version of the character. Kirk may have made more bigoted comments, sure, but we had a far larger sample size to work with, within that one episode Pike showed himself to be pretty awful in that regard in ways that later TOS portrayals didn't.
More to the point I just didn't see him being all that effective as a captain, number 1 spent far more of the episode actually being in charge of the crew and managing the people around her in constructive ways, whereas during that time he was being violently out of control of his anger at being captive rather than showing the sort of cunning and professionalism we've see from other captains in similar circumstances. We saw no real sign of him being particularly capable or intelligent and much of his character development was based around his unhelpfully defeatist attitude following failures offscreen.
Pike is a Captain 13 years before the Menagerie. We know Kirk was a newly minted Lt. 11 years before obsession, and before that he was an Ensign on the Republic for an unknown period of time. Also, that he didn't graduate the Academy until he was assigned to Garrovick on the Farragut, so the Republic was a sort of cadet cruise for him. Best case scenario, Kirk was a junior officer on either the Farragut or the Republic when Pike had already been in command of the Enterprise for some time.
As for the rest, the dialogue clearly is intended to imply that Pike was promoted out of his command and Kirk met him because he took over that command.
Yes, but since we are discussing the intricacies of captaincy, which is both a title and a rank, I feel we should tackle rank; Pike's promotion to the rank of (Fleet) Captain has never been placed on any timeline in dialogue, except as preceding the ship handover. And dialogue fails to show rank braid (as does, lamentably, the episode "The Menagerie", what with Pike no longer having hands to put into sleeves!)
Insisting that only people wearing the |:| braid can be captains is fallacy, as seen all across TOS, and never mind the spinoffs. Once we accept that, the Pike timeline becomes more malleable and thus more manageable than in the opposite case. Why should we favor the opposite, which is contrary to real-world practices, contrary to what we see in Trek, and likely to complicate what we hear in Trek? Just seems unnecessary hassle to me.
Naah. Again, no reason to believe in the complicated. Going back to the original material makes things much easier: nobody mentions graduation in this context, only the act of "leaving" the Academy. And we know Kirk was instructor at Lieutenant rank. So all his early occasions of holding commissioned rank can and should be interpreted as him having graduated.
There just isn't any pressing reason to complicate matters - even if this takes the form of seemingly oversimplifying, such as claiming that captains are of Captain rank.
Quite possibly, only with him as an instructor to said cadets.
And for all we know, Lieutenant Kirk took over the ship from Commander Pike at some point, in an incident that left a lasting mark on both.
See? We don't need to complicate. But by keeping it simple, we get flexibility to tell stories, including complicated ones if those have dramatic appeal.
Or then that yes, Kirk knows the man from several contexts, even if Mendez tries to imply otherwise.
Should we for some reason assume Kirk and Pike are relative strangers to each other? That is, less intimate than, say, Kirk and Decker, or Kirk and Wesley?
It seems Spock feels the need to shield Kirk from the "subspace buzz" on Pike's fate - an action unnecessary for his plan of abducting Pike. Had Kirk known about Pike, he might well have paid a visit to SB11 soon enough, and the plan could proceed. So why keep Kirk in the dark? Presumably so that none of Pike's associates could discuss things through with Pike before Spock acted. Isn't Kirk an associate, then?
Timo Saloniemi
It took years before I realized that in the scene where Kamarag goes "There shall be no peace....as long as Kirk lives!" and then leaves in a huff, somebody yells out "YOU POMPOUS ASS!" I could never figure out what they were yelling.
Because they clearly say 'promoted to Fleet Captain.' You get promoted to a rank, Fleet Captain is a rank.
Besides, my OCD requires that a full three stripe rank exists.
The dialogue makes it clear that anger is the only way to keep the Talosians out of one's head. Why would we criticize Pike for using the one tool at his disposal?
Cause on my read of the episode it's not so much he was using it as habitually succumbing because that was in his character. Maybe it would be worth a rewatch
Cause on my read of the episode it's not so much he was using it as habitually succumbing because that was in his character. Maybe it would be worth a rewatch
I never have a problem revisiting "The Cage".
One has to remember, we're picking up in the middle of events. Pike has just lost several crew on Rigel VII and is full of self-doubt about his future. Judging Pike on "The Cage" (even though it is all we have), would be like judging Picard solely on "Encounter at Farpoint".
We only have a glimpse of who Pike was. But I'd say early Kirk was written with Pike in mind.
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