Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread

[exodus]

I thought Keegan de Lancie was great--he played a smart-ass really well.

Yes he did, plus he & Manu have good chemistry when playing friends. It would have been interesting to see how Icheb's life in Starfleet turns out knowing he's got a Q as a best friend.

But he never did manager to make a silk purse out of his sow's ear of a character.

I disagree.

IMO eps. like "Riddles", "Once Upon A Time", "Homestead", "Day of Honor" really steps up the character.
He cares for others many times more than he cares about himself. He was the least selfish character on Voyager.

 

[Markira]

I thought Keegan de Lancie was great--he played a smart-ass really well.

This episode reminded me of TNG in that it was just fun and not about some mission or alien/anomaly of the week. Loved the de Lancies' performances. I want to see Keegan de Lancie in something else.

Cool about your daughter, Shatnertage. My son loves his little sister and is super-protective of her. She's definitely the trouble-maker but she does it in such a way as to make it look like it was all his idea. And she's only 1, so we have a lot of trouble to look forward to.

 

[Markira]

I thought Keegan de Lancie was great--he played a smart-ass really well.

Yes he did, plus he & Manu have good chemistry when playing friends. It would have been interesting to see how Icheb's life in Starfleet turns out knowing he's got a Q as a best friend.

But he never did manager to make a silk purse out of his sow's ear of a character.

I disagree.

IMO eps. like "Riddles", "Once Upon A Time", "Homestead", "Day of Honor" really steps up the character.
He cares for others many times more than he cares about himself. He was the least selfish character on Voyager.

I meant to respond to the Ethan Phillips homage before. I think he did great things with the character of Neelix, and I always liked Neelix. My fave? No, but I agree with exodus that he was unselfish and caring. Took his job as morale officer seriously (which was sometimes quite comical for us the audience).

Never did take him too seriously as Delta Quadrant ambassador, though...but I blame the writers for that.

 

[exodus]

Never did take him too seriously as Delta Quadrant ambassador, though

I don't think we were supposed too, honestly.
I believe he was only given the job because he's native to the quaderant.
It's easier to make trade deals with a species/race you know rather than dealing with strangers like the crew of Voyager.
Due to the Kazon and events like "Raven" & "Living Witness"..., Voyager had a bad reputation in the DQ.
So you'd send Neelix to make trade deals instead. You'd never suspect bad intentions from someone like Neelix. It's reverse psychology.

 

[Shatnertage]

I wouldn't mind seeing an adventure of Icheb and Q Jr in a short story. Could be fun.

This episode is interesting because, in the big picture it should be a mess (lousy, lousy idea, way too much homage to TNG, philosophical issue with the Q that Possum mentioned), but, because all of the little things click, it works on the screen and is quite enjoyable. I wonder how much of that is because of Levar Burton directing?

 

[exodus]

I hate all Voyager Q eps on principal (it seems wrong and awkward for them to keep using a character for laughs when he had the power to get them home from the DQ),

Wasn't part of the reason Q spun the Enterprise into the DQ to meet the Borg, was to see how mankind reacted to the hostile unknown? So why would he wish Voyager to get home, when it's more fun to him to watch his experiment unfold over time? Sending Voyager home would defeat the purpose of the challenge he set for Picard in "Farpoint..", too see if mankind deserved the right to explore space.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Yeah, but Janeway never even ASKED if Q would help them get home. It was discussed during Quinn's trial, but never came up again. I mean, I would have at least asked.

However, I'm willing to admit that my opinion might be biased by the fact that I just don't like Q at all. He was awesome and scary in his first two appearances. (And OK in "All Good Things.") But I was very disappointed at him getting made into a clown. I thought he was much more interesting as a mysterious, aloof villain.

 

[exodus]

Yeah, but Janeway never even ASKED if Q would help them get home. It was discussed during Quinn's trial, but never came up again. I mean, I would have at least asked.

If Janeway like you believes Q to be sinister, then in the back of your mind you get your request but not how you want it. Q would send you home but back to the period when the Caveman existed. Q is never going to give you what you want, exactly as you want it.

However, I'm willing to admit that my opinion might be biased by the fact that I just don't like Q at all. He was awesome and scary in his first two appearances. (And OK in "All Good Things.") But I was very disappointed at him getting made into a clown. I thought he was much more interesting as a mysterious, aloof villain.

Understood, you prefer him more sinister and less Loki-ish.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Yeah, but Janeway never even ASKED if Q would help them get home. It was discussed during Quinn's trial, but never came up again. I mean, I would have at least asked.

If Janeway like you believes Q to be sinister, then in the back of your mind you get your request but not how you want it. Q would send you home but back to the period when the Caveman existed. Q is never going to give you what you want, exactly as you want it.

Yeah, I'm not hard to satisfy, though. If they had just had one scene with the senior staff sitting around discussing the possible outcomes of a request for assistance, that would have been fine. Chak could have offered the argument you used here, Janeway could have said it wasn't worth the risk, and that would have been that.

But when they ignore it altogether - it just looks to me like the writers were viewing Q strictly as a clown.

However, I'm willing to admit that my opinion might be biased by the fact that I just don't like Q at all. He was awesome and scary in his first two appearances. (And OK in "All Good Things.") But I was very disappointed at him getting made into a clown. I thought he was much more interesting as a mysterious, aloof villain.

Understood, you prefer him more sinister and less Loki-ish.

Yes, Loki types always irritate me. I'm too straightforward and impatient to appreciate them.

 

[exodus]

Yeah, but Janeway never even ASKED if Q would help them get home. It was discussed during Quinn's trial, but never came up again. I mean, I would have at least asked.

If Janeway like you believes Q to be sinister, then in the back of your mind you get your request but not how you want it. Q would send you home but back to the period when the Caveman existed. Q is never going to give you what you want, exactly as you want it.

Yeah, I'm not hard to satisfy, though. If they had just had one scene with the senior staff sitting around discussing the possible outcomes of a request for assistance, that would have been fine. Chak could have offered the argument you used here, Janeway could have said it wasn't worth the risk, and that would have been that.

But when they ignore it altogether - it just looks to me like the writers were viewing Q strictly as a clown.

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

 

[T.D. Possum]

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

Yes, that, too.

 

[exodus]

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

Yes, that, too.

Considering that, they should have used this a solid excuse for LT. Jonas turning traitor.

 

[T.D. Possum]

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

Yes, that, too.

Considering that, they should have used this a solid excuse for LT. Jonas turning traitor.

Now, that would have been interesting. Also, they could have thrown in some argument scenes, like with Tuvok, Seska, Torres, and Carey in "Prime Factors".

 

[exodus]

Yes, that, too.

Considering that, they should have used this a solid excuse for LT. Jonas turning traitor.

Now, that would have been interesting. Also, they could have thrown in some argument scenes, like with Tuvok, Seska, Torres, and Carey in "Prime Factors".

Yes, word.
After considering your POV, I am surprised Be'Lanna wouldn't take her to the mat on that one. I would expect Tuvok to be breifed on the Q and understand Janeway more but I wouldn't say the same of Be'lanna.

 

[T.D. Possum]

^ And how epic would that confrontation have been?!?!?

(Answer: Off the charts!)

 

[exodus]

^ And how epic would that confrontation have been?!?!?

(Answer: Off the charts!)

HOLLA!

 

[froot]

If Janeway like you believes Q to be sinister, then in the back of your mind you get your request but not how you want it. Q would send you home but back to the period when the Caveman existed. Q is never going to give you what you want, exactly as you want it.

Yeah, I'm not hard to satisfy, though. If they had just had one scene with the senior staff sitting around discussing the possible outcomes of a request for assistance, that would have been fine. Chak could have offered the argument you used here, Janeway could have said it wasn't worth the risk, and that would have been that.

But when they ignore it altogether - it just looks to me like the writers were viewing Q strictly as a clown.

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

Actually... it came up every time Q showed up:

1) In "Death Wish," Q used Earth as bait to get what he wanted. Janeway ruled in favor of Quinn anyway. There was no way she was going to make that request in that episode.

2) In "Q and the Grey," Janeway said she didn't want Q to snap them back to Earth because it remove the challenge. More than likely she was trying to get Q to stop being a dumbass and end the war, but still. Ack. Bad line. Q really owed her one after this episode - if there was a time she should have asked, it would have been here.

3) Janeway directly asked Q to send them home at the end of "Q2." He says it would set a bad example for his son and remove the challenge.

Q: Oh, before I leave. (gives her a PADD) I did a little homework for you. Consider it a thank you for everything you did for Junior.
JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey. Why not send us all the way?
Q: What sort of an example would I be setting for my son if I did all the work for you?

EDIT: I agree that I'd be very loath to request Q to do anything and not expect something quirky to happen. :P

 

[T.D. Possum]

Yeah, I'm not hard to satisfy, though. If they had just had one scene with the senior staff sitting around discussing the possible outcomes of a request for assistance, that would have been fine. Chak could have offered the argument you used here, Janeway could have said it wasn't worth the risk, and that would have been that.

But when they ignore it altogether - it just looks to me like the writers were viewing Q strictly as a clown.

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

Actually... it came up every time Q showed up:

1) In "Death Wish," Q used Earth as bait to get what he wanted. Janeway ruled in favor of Quinn anyway.

2) In "Q and the Grey," Janeway said she didn't want Q to snap them back to Earth because it remove the challenge. More than likely she was trying to get Q to stop being a dumbass and end the war, but still. Ack. Bad line.

3) Janeway directly asks Q to his face to send home at the end of "Q2." He says it would set a bad example for his son and remove the challenge.

Seriously? And I missed all that?

I was obviously looking harder than I was listening.

 

[exodus]

Yeah, I'm not hard to satisfy, though. If they had just had one scene with the senior staff sitting around discussing the possible outcomes of a request for assistance, that would have been fine. Chak could have offered the argument you used here, Janeway could have said it wasn't worth the risk, and that would have been that.

But when they ignore it altogether - it just looks to me like the writers were viewing Q strictly as a clown.

........or Janeway negligent in not considering all the options presented to her. So yes, I can understand your point of view.

Actually... it came up every time Q showed up:

1) In "Death Wish," Q used Earth as bait to get what he wanted. Janeway ruled in favor of Quinn anyway. There was no way she was going to make that request in that episode.

2) In "Q and the Grey," Janeway said she didn't want Q to snap them back to Earth because it remove the challenge. More than likely she was trying to get Q to stop being a dumbass and end the war, but still. Ack. Bad line. Q really owed her one after this episode - if there was a time she should have asked, it would have been here.

3) Janeway directly asked Q to send them home at the end of "Q2." He says it would set a bad example for his son and remove the challenge.

EDIT: I agree that I'd be very loath to request Q to do anything and not expect something quirky to happen. :P

I think Katie rejecting Q's sexual advances in "Q & the Grey" would have taken off the table the idea of him owing her anything. We are nothing but ants to the Q. The idea of mankind owing something to an ant would be absurd to us, imagine how it seems to the Q?

Mankind are bound by morals & ethics under the belief that someone or something is watching us, holding us accountable. The Q are seen as Godlike, the Q don't believe they are being watched or held accountable for many of their actions. This is why Guinian refers to some as "almost" respectable. We don't even know if the Q have laws.

The Q have provided us with the entire universe and all the resources in it, they really don't owe anybody anything more than that. Just like Q told us in "Farpoint", if you're going to explore space then you better learn how to figure out your own problems yourself. Picard refused any help from the Q, when Q offered. So when Picard declined, he declined for all of us.....even Janeway.

 

[Shatnertage]

I've had a very busy few days--some outside work might be coming in, and naturally things at home are hectic. But it's still fun to write about...

"Author, Author"

This is another outstanding episode, with a caveat I'll talk about at the end. How can you not like the Doctor in a smoking jacket?

I love the set-up, with the Doctor writing a holo-novel that he's somehow gotten a contract for back in the Alpha Quadrant. There's a nice subplot with Harry Kim's mom threatening to write to Captain Janeway about promoting her son, which I hope we see follow up on in a future episode. I can only imagine the number of dismissive handwaves we'd get as she discussed it with Chakotay:

"Well, apparently Ensign Kim got his mother [DHW] to write some kind of letter [DHW] asking that we give him a promotion [DHW]. How do you think we should respond to our...overlooked ensign [DHW]."

That's how I see it going, anyway.

Also, I just remembered that, in "Q2," Chakotay put his hand on his hip yet again! it would be awesome if Tuvok cleared his throat and then said, "Commander...you're doing it again."

I'm not sure who my favorite officer on the USS Vortex is.

Captain Jenkins: Basically Janeway from "Living Witness," minus the black gloves. Shoots a wounded man so she can get her helmsman back.

Katanay: has what looks like tattoo of a snake and a peace sign covering the left side of his face--and a ponytail.

Tulak: Just Tuvok minus the ears, with a goatee and a mean streak.

Torrey: Nice to see Roxann Dawson out of the Klingon makeup--basically, 1st season Torres with the volume turned up

Marseilles: This was a fun one--Paris with a porn stache, seducing patients. The "I'm here for my physical?" was the kicker.

Kymble: a hypochondriac who isn't even that mean.

Three of Eight: Jeri Ryan as a redhead, minus the Borg implants but with a necklace that blinks. I almost wish this was how Seven had looked. The blinking necklace would have been a big merchandising tie-in.

I loved the holo-novel--it was hysterical. Of course if the Doctor really does feel that put-upon he's a diva, but he's been a bit of a diva for a while--he complained that they couldn't hold the ship in the same place for two weeks just so he could present a paper in person at a conference.

Paris' holonovel, though, is even better--the USS Voyeur? A sleazy Doctor with a combover? Two of Three? That was rich.

But McNeill and Picardo squeezed in a real "acting" character moment when Paris seemed genuinely hurt that the Doctor didn't respect him, and the Doctor seemed touched that he valued his opinion so much.

The rest of the story is basically a reworking of "Measure of a Man," with an assist from Barclay and Admiral Paris. That part doesn't do it for me so much--the comedy's much better than the drama here. I'm not a fan of courtroom dramas in Trek since they make a mockery of any sense of judicial procedure, but I guess if you have to do it, this wasn't such a bad one.

Stinger with the EMHs in the mine circulating the holonovel makes it seem this will have galaxy-spanning implications. I'm guessing it doesn't.

Now, if this was such a great episode, what's the caveat? It's that the show seems to be very, very self-referential this season, which is a sign to me that, as much as it remains, it's really running out of ideas. I've seen people say that Voyager didn't really wrap things up before the final episode, and I'm starting to see that here. We get a hint of an arc ending with Torres agreeing to talk to her dad (and I guess her mom really is dead, since he says she "would have" liked the name), but there's not really a sense that the show's moving towards a conclusion here.

That's kind of a vague criticism, and it doesn't spoil my appreciation of this episode, but I thought it was fair to share it. At this point it really feels like Trek is feeding back on itself instead of growing, and I think that Berman and Braga's original plan to rest the franchise while preparing for ENT was a good one. Of course, we all know how that turned out.