Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread

[exodus]

Everybody compares it to "The Measure of a Man" but I don't.
"Measure", Data is fighting for his right to exist. His very being as an individual is as stake.
In "Author, Author" it's art imitating life. The Doc writes a story about how he is aware he isn't "real" & a publishing company turns around and steals his work because under the law, he isn't seen as "real." It's a play on irony.
So before anyone can establish if a hologram can have rights, they have to establish if he is equal to someone flesh and blood or even equal to Data, who is solid matter.

The entire crew but Janeway missed the entire point of the story. They focused on how they came across and never listened the the stuff that related to him. His moble emitter is equal to a wheelchair. A wheelchair bound person around an entire community that can walk about freely can only remind him everyday that he isn't like them and will always be different. It's a joy as much as it is a burden.

I think it also makes you go back and wonder about Kes' perception of the Doc.
Kes saw the EMH as "real" but children also view Barney or Dora the Explorer as "real" too. That's why the crew kind of laughed at her when she kept asking them the respect the EMH's feelings. Too them, he was Barney, too her innocent mind he was "real".

The comedy is great but I find the drama even more entertaining. IMO more so than any other Trek I think between Be'Lanna & the Doc., Voyager really nailed it when to came to expressing what it feels like to be a minority.

 

[froot]

^ That's a really interesting assessment! I usually look at Doc as a bit of diva, myself... but your wheelchair comparison really made sense.

I like this ep, too! Another one I really, really enjoy, even though I claim not to like Season 7 very much. I agree that we didn't see things "wrapping up" as much they should have. The whole "talking to home" thing they started doing did make the AQ seem quite a bit closer, though. I liked that.

IMO, there is an episode coming up that does do some "wrapping up" very well, I think. It's another of my favorites.

Also, [DHW]. LOL!

PS: Voyager should have ended with a movie, dammit. I was so mad when X-Files got a movie and VOY didn't.

 

[Shatnertage]

Well, now I'm on to an episode that doesn't seem to do anything right. It feels like it's an enemy, but it's...

"Friendship One"

This was a bad bad episode, as opposed to a good bad episode. The opening tease was just kind of there, and there was some choppy editing again. It feels like they're saving up a lot for the finale...or limping across the finish line.

The show again goes self-referential with an opening reference to Janeway making more first contacts than anyone since James Kirk. That's the third episode in a row, I think, where there's a callback to older Trek.

The story itself is actively stupid. Having just made contact with the Vulcans and learning that there really is someone out there, why would war-ravaged humanity waste valuable resources just sending a probe like this out? Wouldn't they be focused on working with the Vulcans, or starting their own colonization efforts? I'm surprised the Vulcans didn't make a little accident for the probe, knowing how they operated back then.

So Earth sent out data on antimatter, these guys used it, and blew themselves up, and they're still blaming Earth? I guess that makes some sense, but it just seems like the whole story is convoluted. Why would they want Voyager to look for the 300 year-old probe in the first place?

Then you've got them bringing Carey back just to kill him, which I also don't get. Even though Seven's Borg nanoprobes once brought back Neelix after 3 days (or so), they are powerless to save a guy seconds after he gets shot. Whatever. After the resurrection of Neelix, no one on Voyager should have died again unless they were vaporized.

Why didn't the mom of the infant go back to the ship with them? Or even suggest it? Wouldn't you want to stay with your baby? That's just one other thing that bugged me.

I just didn't like this one.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Carey died a meaningless death.

They were originally going to kill Sam Wildman so I guess I'm happy they chose him.

 

[froot]

This was a bad bad episode, as opposed to a good bad episode.

I'm not a fan of Carey dying at all, but it's interesting: this is usually hailed as a good episode by a lot of people.

I personally like this one, despite Carey's death and Janeway's line at the end about exploring not being worth one death. I can chalk that line up to grief (and I think that's what the writers intended), but it's still a bad line in a show entirely about exploration. It also completely ignores the message given to the audience in "One Small Step."

Well, and the whole freaking point of Star Trek.

 

[exodus]

The story itself is actively stupid. Having just made contact with the Vulcans and learning that there really is someone out there, why would war-ravaged humanity waste valuable resources just sending a probe like this out? Wouldn't they be focused on working with the Vulcans, or starting their own colonization efforts? I'm surprised the Vulcans didn't make a little accident for the probe, knowing how they operated back then.

Depending on which history story you believe: Picard said that the Federation became enemies with the Klingons because of bad first contact protocol.

Or

If you follow ENT., Archer wasn't very good at being diplomatic and not doubtly made some enemies with come cultures/species allong the way.

So either way, we weren't good at first contact yet. It would make sense to send this probe out to give proper greeting to avoid misunderstandings.

Then you've got them bringing Carey back just to kill him, which I also don't get. Even though Seven's Borg nanoprobes once brought back Neelix after 3 days (or so), they are powerless to save a guy seconds after he gets shot. Whatever. After the resurrection of Neelix, no one on Voyager should have died again unless they were vaporized.

Different type of deaths I assume
Neelix' body was still whole, just the "spark" had gone out of it.
His synapsis were still connected.
Carey was shot at point blank range.
Mofo has a hole in his chest. synapsis disrupted.
Nanoprobes can't fix that.

Go back over Voyager:
"Unity", Their Cube was hit by an electrical storm.
Most survived. "Dark Frontier" a Sphere caught in an ion storm was limping home repairing itself.
Nanoprobes are resistant to eletrical discharge and can repair damage.
Examples: "BOBW", "Desent", "First Contact" "Scorpion", etc.
All show Borg being shot dead.
If you phaser a Borg before they adapt, that Borg is dead and stays dead.
Remember Picard's advice? The only way to save a assimilated crewman is to shoot them.
Nano's can't repair phaser fire damage.

 

[Athena28]

..And it's fitting, as a parent, that I just got done watching...

"Q2"

There wasn't a whole lot of meat to this episode, but there was some nice acting and a few funny moments. In other words, it's a good bad episode...

What can I say? I loved John de Lancie. He and KM in the bathtub -- just silly fun.

 

[Athena28]

..."Author, Author"

This is another outstanding episode, with a caveat I'll talk about at the end. How can you not like the Doctor in a smoking jacket?...

I agree in that the writers seemed to be repeating themselves, somewhat. But it still was a fun, light, ep. Considering some of the heavier ones in the series, these are a nice break sometimes. As long as they don't get too silly.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

I did enjoy the first half of "Author, Author" as well. I think it was hilarious, and certainly Seven of, er, Two-of-Three's necklace and earrings would be perfect merchandising. They actually made her look like a caveman Borg or something. I'm not sure if there's a caveman chic out there, but The Doctor just invented it for this story.

The legal procedings stuff was very ominous and scary. Sure we want the doctor to be able to control his own story, but it would be ominous to give holograms rights. "Photons and forcefields," they say. But when power runs out, offline they go. Data was self-powered...

 

[exodus]

^^I'm not sure I'm understanding.
Why is it ominous to give holograms rights?

 

[Shatnertage]

The entire crew but Janeway missed the entire point of the story. They focused on how they came across and never listened the the stuff that related to him. His moble emitter is equal to a wheelchair. A wheelchair bound person around an entire community that can walk about freely can only remind him everyday that he isn't like them and will always be different. It's a joy as much as it is a burden.

I think your last sentence is the key to it. The Doctor's not a lesser human--he's totally different from humans and arguably superior. He will never age, doesn't feel pain, he can live in environments that would kill a human, he doesn't get sick, and he will never die (barring accident).

On the other hand, he doesn't feel pleasure, either. "Body and Soul" suggests that he can't even enjoy eating a piece of cheesecake, so even though we know that he's had sex, it's not clear exactly what he got out of it.

I think if someone wanted to explore the themes in this episode earlier, you could make a great story about combining Ira Graves' work with Lewis Zimmerman. Before you die, you upload your consciousness into a holomatrix and become, effectively, immortal. Or do you?

 

[exodus]

The entire crew but Janeway missed the entire point of the story. They focused on how they came across and never listened the the stuff that related to him. His moble emitter is equal to a wheelchair. A wheelchair bound person around an entire community that can walk about freely can only remind him everyday that he isn't like them and will always be different. It's a joy as much as it is a burden.

I think your last sentence is the key to it. The Doctor's not a lesser human--he's totally different from humans and arguably superior. He will never age, doesn't feel pain, he can live in environments that would kill a human, he doesn't get sick, and he will never die (barring accident).

On the other hand, he doesn't feel pleasure, either. "Body and Soul" suggests that he can't even enjoy eating a piece of cheesecake, so even though we know that he's had sex, it's not clear exactly what he got out of it.

I think if someone wanted to explore the themes in this episode earlier, you could make a great story about combining Ira Graves' work with Lewis Zimmerman. Before you die, you upload your consciousness into a holomatrix and become, effectively, immortal. Or do you?

Is it worth being immortal if everyone around you who is flesh & blood will grow old and eventually die. No relationship you make will ever last.

How much death can one man endure just to live forever?

 

[Shatnertage]

These are interesting questions, and they raise the further question of just how close the Doctor was with Voyager's crew.

In "Virtuoso," he was ready to ditch them all to become an opera star. In that other episode, he wanted to make them hang around for two weeks while he gave a paper at a conference. Although in some episodes he's clearly emotionally invested in the lives of the crew (in particular the one, whose name I forget, where Janeway wiped his memory), in others he seems kind of aloof. While I can see him being nostalgic for the old days, it's debatable how sad he'd be once he moved on to new things.

As far as "real" people becoming immortal holograms, I guess it all depends on who else got to become immortal with you. And you'd eventually be pretty miserable, I guess, because the world would leave you behind. I just caught part of Interview with a Vampire on TV, and I'm thinking about Armand talking about how the vampires are immortal, but don't change to keep up with the world.

 

[exodus]

These are interesting questions, and they raise the further question of just how close the Doctor was with Voyager's crew.

In "Virtuoso," he was ready to ditch them all to become an opera star. In that other episode, he wanted to make them hang around for two weeks while he gave a paper at a conference. Although in some episodes he's clearly emotionally invested in the lives of the crew (in particular the one, whose name I forget, where Janeway wiped his memory), in others he seems kind of aloof. While I can see him being nostalgic for the old days, it's debatable how sad he'd be once he moved on to new things.

True but you also have to keep in mind, much of his personality isn't him but rather Dr. Zimmerman. It's his personality traits that were given to the EMH MARK 1's. That's why they had poor bedside manner and the ego. The compassion for the crew and his concern for civil rights, is the EMH himself. These two sides of his personality subroutine are as harmonious as they are conflictive.

If you think the EMH can be emotionally invested and aloof, wait until you watch DS9 and get to know Jadzia Dax. I being with 7 life times of personalities acting in harmonious conflict.

 

[Shatnertage]

The most disturbing part about the EMH is that his personality can be completely changed with a few keystrokes. He was capable of doing this:



To what might have been his closest friend onboard, and seems positively gleeful about it.

It makes you wonder how tough it would be to be the Doctor's friend; you don't have to worry about whether he really likes you because you're rich or popular or sexy, but if he really likes you just because he's programmed to.

It's actually a pretty Dickian concept.

ETA: Well, looks like I botched the video. At the 3:28 mark of that clip, you get the "Clementine" scene from "Equinox."

 

[Markira]

All this discussion about the EMH and holograms is very interesting. Shatnertage, you hit one of my biggest issues above - the programmable nature. Someone else mentioned the necessity of a power source in order to keep the photons and force fields running. I can suspend disbelief for the sake of the story, and truth be told the Doctor is one of my favorite characters, but when I really think about it, I find holograms to be problematic from a moral and ethical standpoint.

 

[Shatnertage]

I'm back with an unnaturally soporific episode...

"Natural Law"

For the most part this is Trek by numbers. I'm really, really getting the feeling that the last few episodes were rushed because people were busy working on the series finale.

It's basically a story we've seen before: away team gets trapped with a primitive culture, learns primitive culture is actually very advanced in some ways, then helps them against a more advanced aggressor. In other words, completely predictable.

Just once I'd like to see a story where the indigenous people they find aren't gentle, noble savages, but are complete assholes. I figure that the proportion of assholes::nice people is pretty constant throughout every culture on Earth, so it stands to reason that the same would be true on other worlds. Sooner or later, a starship should find a planet where the natives they meet are just plain ornery for no good reasons. Seems to happen with advanced societies enough. Someone in the writers' room is reading too much Rousseau and not enough Hobbes.

I'll admit I was impressed by the muscular development on the lead alien guy that Chakotay hung out with--he had the legs of a dancer. And I laughed every time the groin-region loincloths came into the shot because I remembered an episode of Larry Sanders where Larry was dressed like a caveman and Carol Burnett saw his balls. It's much funnier when Carol says it.

Loved the guys getting Chakotay ink. And the women plastering metal to their faces.

I liked the Tom Paris learning to fly sub-plot--something about the instructor was pretty cool. I didn't like the way the resolved it, though. I thought they were building up to a big comedy pay-off--like when Paris breaks the rules and pulls all those crazy moves, the instructor is all, "What took you so long!" and makes him do more of it. Or just something funny.

So, this isn't one I liked so much. Since "Workforce" I've counted three full-on duds, one good bad episode, and one episode I genuinely liked. I'm putting all my chips on "Homestead" and "Renaissance Man," because from what I've heard "Endgame" isn't going to leave me feeling good about the show.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Huh? What episode?


Oh. Chakotay Takes a Nap. Standard sci-fi episode. Boooorrrrinnnng.


"Homestead" is one of my favorites from the last season, and "Renaissance Man" is good as well.

As for "Endgame" . . . . . Well

 

[froot]

Huh? What episode?


Oh. Chakotay Takes a Nap. Standard sci-fi episode. Boooorrrrinnnng.


"Homestead" is one of my favorites from the last season, and "Renaissance Man" is good as well.

As for "Endgame" . . . . . Well

"Homestead" is pretty awesome.

I like "Renaissance Man" too, actually. It would have worked better earlier in the season, though (er, they'd have to change a detail or two, however )

End-what? Was there an episode after "Renaissance Man?"

 

[HoneyBLilly]

End-what? Was there an episode after "Renaissance Man?"

Sadly we have to acknowledge it I did make a video of it after all.

Best advice for "Endgame" ignore all other Trek and lower expectations to the point where even Nemesis would be Oscar-worthy.