Another thought on the torpedo bays on the refit Enterprise

[mattpiper]

I know this torpedo bay complex in the neck of the refit has been talked about endlessly, mainly on how a dual structure cannot fit. Here's a compromise that came to mind this morning... What if the port-side TORP BAY 2 is as shown in TWOK, but the door to TORP BAY 1 actually leads to the much narrower (and more automated) space we see in STVI? We don't actually see which tube Spock/McCoy's modified torpedo is launched from given the angle of the shot in the film.

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It looks to me as if this could fit. It would still mean there is a jog to the left for the torpedos loaded in TORP BAY 2 to line up with the launching (and avoid the intermix chamber).

As for the functioning torpedo bay at Spock's funeral, well, that never did make sense as they didn't change the signing nor the door placement, so the only answer there is they rebuilt the bay between Khan's attack and the funeral (I know, no way, but...)

And this does not address TORP BAY 3 & 4, unless we can just say those auxiliary support areas for the photon torpedo complex...

Curious as if this has been discussed, and if not, what folks' thoughts are on it.

Cheers!

 

[mattpiper]

And perhaps there is a cross tube torpedo track so either initial loading bay could fire out of either tube... Allowing Spock's torpedo casket to still launch out of the starboard tube while holding the service in the larger port TORP BAY 2.

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[publiusr]

There was some signage indicating other bays, was there not?

I love the placement on the NX-01 saucer—ample room.

 

[DSG2k]

I have no particular issue with asymmetric torpedo rooms as proposed, though it isn't necessary to match the ST2 and ST6 rooms from different vessels. However, it is handy in this case.

As you know, there are three main problems with the 2280s Constitution Class torpedo launch complex.

1. Per TMP, there is at least one deck of intermix chamber, power transfer conduit, or other glowy-swirly-tube-thing-of-import going above the main level of Engineering (where another similar horizontal part extends back toward the rear of the ship).

Your solution deals with this quite adequately, except insofar as having live munitions as close to the warp core as possible, which is just insane . . . but that's not your fault.

2. There is a docking port on both sides which limits the position of the room for "Torp Bay 2" into which Kirk enters.

I fear your solution puts the docking port interior too far back compared to the exterior.

3. There is a shot, shown between Regula One and the entry into the Mutara Nebula, suggesting bays 3 and 4.

Your solution doesn't seem to address this, as you acknowledge. Maybe it's ST5's Deck 55 or whatever?

 

[Tuskin38]

There was some signage indicating other bays, was there not?

I love the placement on the NX-01 saucer—ample room.

also doubled as the armoury.

 

[mattpiper]

All great points, DSG2k... I had thought the docking ports were more after than they were. And I was able to find an overhead blueprint with the actual measurements of the set:

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And when that is fitted over the 305m Enterprise, it fits into the set as such (with the docking port properly aligned):

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So alas, I can finally say once as for all it simply doesn't work. The red square indicates where the vertical intermix shaft would be, right smack dab in the middle of the torpedo run.

And if we did want mirrored dual torpedo bays as shown, we would have to double the size of the ship to have them not only next to each other but not interfere with the intermix shaft, as shown here:

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While I could imagine scaling the ship up by 20% or so, too much more and none of the other external cues work out.

It was a fun experiment!

 

[DSG2k]

Well, I was not going to bring this up, but although everyone tends to go with the idea of a vertical intermix shaft leading straight down from the funky impulse crystal thing, the simple fact is that, unless I am sorely mistaken, that concept has never appeared on screen.

Furthermore, I am taking a look to see if the forced perspective horizontal power glowy doodad leading aft actually satisfies the distance requirements for the vertical intermix shaft at all. We also know that there is consistently a linear corridor forward of Engineering.

The basic premise that I am going to examine is whether engineering might be a little lower and a little further back then we all tend to assume, with perhaps curved deuterium tankage in between. This might serve to explain the vent-like grooves on the dorsal surface of the secondary hull (which we should literally be able to see the innards of in Engineering, in the common view), as well as solve some of the problems people have trying to get the ship to work. It would only necessitate that if there is a connection between the warp core and the crystal doohickey (a concept which is at least supported by MSDs of Excelsior Class ships, though they split off into two of them anyway), there would have to be 45 or 90 degree turns involved.

(Bear in mind, as much as I love the Constitution class, I was pointing out 15 years ago that the interconnecting dorsal represents a bottleneck that made sense in the days of conjectural non-ejectable cores, but if you can eject then that perfectly explains why the equal-volume Miranda Class, a more efficient design, seemed to win the longevity race.)

Such a change of view in regards to engineering would solve the problem of the intermix chamber that you have noted.

 

[publiusr]

The saucer needs its own fuel supply—and the vertical column may just be to feed the chicket torpedoes. Maybe the -A had this arrangement.

 

[Tomalak]

Your solution deals with this quite adequately, except insofar as having live munitions as close to the warp core as possible, which is just insane . . . but that's not your fault.

I would guess the answer to that is that they aren’t “live” until they leave the ship- perhaps with the final insertion of antimatter literally in the launch tube? Until then, they’re totally inert. Would also explain why they seem to have racks of the things sitting around at various points in the franchise with no apparent issues.

I can’t really think of any examples of catastrophic accidental munitions detonation in Star Trek. If we did, TWOK would have been a good opportunity with the Enterprise’s port bay carved up like a Sunday roast.

 

[Mytran]

And if we did want mirrored dual torpedo bays as shown, we would have to double the size of the ship to have them not only next to each other but not interfere with the intermix shaft

While it would make the airlock doors MASSIVE, a refit Enterprise double the size would at least be able to fit in the Rec Deck into the purported location on the edge of the saucer. Without that size increase, the windows simply don't match!

 

[DSG2k]

Without that size increase, the windows simply don't match!

Sure, but changing size established by other evidence is icky, albeit popular around these parts.

Probert made a similar argument about the Rec Deck floor needing to be raised to match the exterior. Alas, production is driven by many things, including cost (hence the torpedo bays being a simple redress of the Klingon bridge), and not everyone involved cares about the little things. I'd wager Probert or someone probably mentioned the window issue, too, but it was decided the set looked better that way, or it was too late to change it, or what-have-you.

As such, the window mismatch is better identified as an error rather than a reason to upscale an object of known size.

 

[David cgc]

While it would make the airlock doors MASSIVE, a refit Enterprise double the size would at least be able to fit in the Rec Deck into the purported location on the edge of the saucer. Without that size increase, the windows simply don't match!

Even disregarding the sets, the windows are simply too close together at the designed size. We can assume (both from logical and practical set-design reasons) that vertically aligned windows of the same size should be the same height from their respective floors; in other words, measuring bottom-to-bottom or top-to-top on any two vertically adjoining windows gives you the full deck height. There isn't a scale on that image, but I assume the figures are about six feet tall, and they seem to be almost exactly the implicit deck-height at the canon scale. You can get around it with misaligned windows where the lower ones are nearly on the ceiling and the upper deck's are nearly on the floor, as you can see in that illustration, but that's just silly.

As for the airlocks, why not just... pretend they're smaller on the model? They're already noticeably bigger proportionally on the AMT model used for distance shots in TWOK-TUC. Similar details like the saucer rim height and paneling on the -D vary on the different studio models. The (presumably) TMP-compatible airlocks on Voyager doubled in size when the Borg were spaced in "Scorpion." There's nothing preventing someone (production- or fan-side) from making a "rationalized" version of the TMP Enterprise; bump the length up to 450 meters, adjust the spacing of the windows, the relative scale of the airlocks, reposition the engineering airlock so it matches the floor level of the shuttlebay.... The differences altogether would be subtle and well within the margin of error granted from the existing models that have represented the ship in canon (Eight foot, TMPDE CG version 1 and 2, tiny TMP, tiny ILM, engineering airlock close-up, torpedo bay close-up, destroyed bridge close-up, destroyed entire ship, and PIC CG version).

 

[DSG2k]

Magic-bullet rescaling is the "redesign an entire starship via this one weird trick!" maneuver where some unique thing (like too-small Borg or mismatch of set and model) becomes casus belli against all other scaling. It is never the answer.

 

[David cgc]

Hey, I'm not the one who decided the ship needed to be exactly 1000 feet long and then put the scale-establishing details so close together the deck height has to be six feet. We're all just trying to imagine something that makes sense.

 

[tharpdevenport]

You know what just occurred to me after al my nerds years?

The torpedo bay being there on a thin part of the ship, that we've seen holes can be punched threw on other parts, is a bad idea. Say the shields are down an an enemy vessel Captain orders: "Take out their main torpedo bay."

Blats the saucer section away from the star drive section.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You know what just occurred to me after al my nerds years?

The torpedo bay being there on a thin part of the ship, that we've seen holes can be punched threw on other parts, is a bad idea. Say the shields are down an an enemy vessel Captain orders: "Take out their main torpedo bay."

Blats the saucer section away from the star drive section.

Why do you think the later iterations of StarShip design started Beefing up the Neck section post TOS Connie & ReFit Connie?

Look at the Excelsior Class, tell me that StarFleet StarShip Corp of Engineers didn't learn a lesson after TWoK?

Eventually, with the Intrepid-class USS Voyager, they have no Neck, the Saucer directly bonds with the StarDrive section, no vulnerable neck spot.
You still have Pylons for the Warp Nacelles, but that's another long term issue for another time to discuss.

If you do have a Neck, it's going to be THICC.

Eventually the 32nd Century StarShips will have "No Necks, No Pylons".

 

[Tomalak]

The neck is never hit in TWOK, only the torpedo room, which was itself a retrofit and not originally intended to be there.

Until Beyond, the neck and pylons were never particularly vulnerable points.