Another take on the Original Enterprise...

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Cary L. Brown, Apr 24, 2009.

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  1. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh, absolutely... the 11' model is as close to "gospel" as you can get (though it's not without error or flaw).

    As I stated earlier in the thread, I'm basing my model primarily on Sinclair's drawings, though I'm also engaging in significant "comparison study" with several other drawing sets out there, including Casimiro's. And for the most part, I'm using the set drawings which David Shaw helped me get my hands on, though I'm using McMaster's bridge blueprints. Obviously, the "real ship" interiors won't be 100% identical to the sets, but the sets are very much a driving factor in my take.

    Regarding the rings... yeah, they were on the 11' model, so they're there. In my "personal canon" take on these, these form a "resonator" which is an integral part of the deflector/scanner functionality... "resonator" in the same sense that a pipe-organ uses the pipes for resonators. They're not "just for show" and they're not "wasted space." They're there, because they serve a purpose. I wouldn't object to "tweaking" their configuration if there were some driving technological reason for doing so, but since we don't really have that sort of technology today, it's hard to say. We're sort of like people from the 1800's trying to understand a jet engine... we can get the very rough basics but the hard science behind it is a bit beyond our knowledge. :)
    Oh, the internal structure of the secondary hull is far from complete. There's a reason I haven't put any decks above the landing bay yet. I need to get the structure... completed. I intend to have a set of "rings" adjacent to each of the angled dorsal elements of the keel. But I need to have the windows placed, first, because I don't want the rings to intersect windows. Then, there will be series of axial beams running from fore to aft along the upper section of the hull (with two of them running the length of the secondary hull... those are visible on the ceiling of the hangar... and the rest terminating at the pylon ring structure. Again, exact locations will have to be based upon known window and deck locations, however.

    The combination of these beams and rings will form what I'm calling the "strongback" of the secondary hull. Meanwhile, the section going from the intersection of the pylons forward to where it intersects with the beams from the dorsal, and continuing upwards through the dorsal, is what I'm calling the keel. The combination of the "strongback" and the "keel" is what gives the secondary hull it's mechanical strength. The "strongback" will essentially be subdivided into a series of very small compartments... which makes it perfect for fluid or bulk-particulate material storage (containers being strung between the structural members, not actually being made up OF the structural members). Meanwhile, the interior elements of the keel will contain heavy conduits and other critical ship's distribution systems.

    In other words... the "Jeffries tubes" are inside of these massive, heavy structural regions... the pylon "beam structures" and the horizontal and upwards-slanting elements of the keel.

    The only thing that's still very fuzzy for me is how to have a strong joint between the primary hull and the dorsal, and the minimal "keel" element of the primary hull (in large part, indicated by the rib on top, forward of the impulse engines) and the regular primary hull structure. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I see this as the single weakest element of the ship, no matter what "magic" materials it's made out of. If I were designing the ship from scratch... I'd have made it like this (modified from the Casimiro drawing, just because that's what I had at hand at the moment I did this):
    [​IMG]
    which would be a far more mechanically-robust solution, and actually looks pretty good as far as I'm concerned. But it's not the Enterprise, and my goal is to have something that in every meaningful way "is" the Enterprise we saw on-screen, just given a bit more "polish" and care than MJ was ever able to give her (he had a short timetable, multiple "cooks" in the kitchen, and it was all done for a paycheck for a TV show... not to mention the rather significant limitation of having no access to modern design tools). I'd like to think that what I'm doing would have met with M.J's approval back in 1966, without him seeing it as "changing" his intent in any way.

    That said... everyone has their own take on things. I love seeing everyone's versions of the TOS ship. I really wish that, SOMEDAY, we were able to see this design get the big-screen exposure it deserves.
     
  2. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, you can get a "learning edition" pretty cheaply, but those are (by intent) not file-compatible with any other versions. Annoying, but not a problem if you don't plan on sharing files with anyone. (You can still export to "neutral" formats like STEP and IGES and so forth, of course.)

    The "sticker price" of a full seat of Pro/E is pretty high still, but nowhere near what it was a few years ago. I've got a full version, but I'm now two major released out of date, about to become three (when the current "prerelease" version of WF5 goes "official" in about a month). But it's working just fine for me so far... I'll upgrade when I have to, not before.
    Yeah... I've got both all four of the really slick little (supposedly "snap-fit," prepainted version) Trek kits from Bandai. They're really fantastic... it's a shame that the line died. I was really looking forward to their next couple of releases. Is that the model you're referring to?

    Regarding the "police siren" from a few posts back, by TIN_MAN, well... I don't see it on my copy, and I'm not sure what it is you're seeing. On the "real" model, these lamps were simply green and red tinted glass bulbs... spherical, of the sort used on Christmas trees of the era (before the mini-bulbs came along, and far before LED Christmas lights!) It's hard for me to imagine how you could get a "rotating" effect out of that. Is it possible that this is just a quirk of the video transfer service on the version of the disk you have?
     
  3. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This evening I did a little bit on the secondary hull.

    First, I created the three "grips" around the resonator assembly. In my version, these are support hardware for the sensing functionality of the dish. Basically, the dish itself sends out energy, which interacts with whatever it impinges on. It pushes objects, mainly, but some of the energy reflects back. The resonator assembly absorbs and amplifies the energy return, and the three "grips" measure this amplified energy, converting it into useful (and interpretable) data.


    Second, and in preparation for continuing the mechanical structure of the secondary hull, I've laid in windows. Note that I haven't actually "cut" them yet, only created the curves from which they will be created. I've tried to match the existing window (and sensor porthole) locations throughout the secondary hull as closely as possible, while still remaining "practical." I've left aside the windows adjacent to the landing bay for the time being, since they don't seem to line up to anything else, and since there are not really any other decks (per-se) inside the landing bay area other than the crawlway leading to the aft observation dome (if I leave it as an observation dome... which I'll only do if that seems like it's remotely practical, something which is definitely "suspect" for now, and which was never indicated by anything on-screen) and the observation gallery/control-room arrangement.

    Things are pretty close, overall. Note that the little vertical lines are "stems" to help me locate my circular portholes (which are based upon rotational cuts normal to the surface, not on parallel surfaces to the hull - I don't want sensor windows to have curvature, after all, so they're perfectly flat!)

    First, here's how it appears on the exterior hull at the moment.

    [​IMG]

    And here's a wireframe-mode view, with datum planes (representing deck surfaces, floor and ceiling... even where they aren't physically modeled yet) and with the Sinclair starboard view (with windows) visible.

    [​IMG]

    You can see what I've had to alter. Basically, I've got decks where they make the most sense, and the spacing is pretty much consistent with what would be required for the windows to be on the appropriate decks. However, the window locations specified on the drawing vary dramatically in terms of their height above deck level, and I've standardized on that.

    Other than that, the only real change I've made is that I've relocated one window (on Deck 17, two decks above the landing bay and two decks down into the secondary hull) forward by approximately a window width. The reason for this is that the location where this window existed previously was in a location where I want a circumferential ring support.

    As for what I'll do with the various portholes and the couple of windows adjacent to the landing bay... stay tuned. I haven't really thought that through yet.

    Finally, you'll notice that I did end up going from a "three box" nacelle pylon beam to a four-box one. This does add a bit of strength, though the strength-to-added-weight ratio isn't sufficient to justify it as far as I'm concerned. It was just necessary in order to get the pylon windows to work correctly. I don't have a particular problem with it, but if I was designing the ship from scratch, well...
     
  4. ancient

    ancient Vice Admiral Admiral

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    MJ made the pylons thin by design, to make the design more magical. He never specified exactly where the magic generator was or how it worked though. I suggest somewhere near engineering...


    Yeah, I know. I think there are three versions, I had a chance to pick up the newest student version discounted last year but didn't go for it. It is a fraction of the pro version.

    ETA: My ENT model is not snap-together. I don't have it with me and forget what it is, but it's a faily new release one for $30.
     
  5. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Cary, I'm no engineer but the way you describe the structure functioning makes perfect common sense to my non-engineer brain, so that must mean you're doing it right. :D

    I'm quite glad to hear that you're treating the 11-footer with such respect, also. And I quite like the way you imagine the sensor/deflector setup working, and I do like the four-section nacelle pylons for what it's worth, even though it was forced by the windows. My question (and you may have addressed it and I just missed it) is where/how will you fit the power transfer conduits? For that matter, have you yet decided how you are going to depict the ship's engineering/power generation setup?

    Also, what are your plans with the weapons systems?
     
  6. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, the term "power transfer conduits" was never used in TOS, so I'm not beholden to that term (and honestly, the term is somewhat nonsensical.. a conduit is, by definition, a holder for other things which do work. For instance, and electrical conduit is a "tunnel" through which you run wires... not the wiring itself. So, "technically," what we think of in Trekkian terms as "power transfer conduits" the equivalent of wires, and are thus not "conduits" at all.

    Really, "conduits" are more like "Jefferies Tubes."

    That said... what TNG-era "power transfer conduits" do is the same job that wires do in our contemporary world... transfer power from one point to another. And on my take on this ship, power is transferred, not through some nonsensical "plasma" system but rather through electromagnetics, much as we do today. The 1701 will have a much more efficient system than the copper wire we use today (though I'd be shocked of copper wasn't still in use in localized wiring!). I'm leaning towards the main power transfer medium being either a superconducting ceramic or a highly-ionized plasma (as a CONDUCTOR, not as the power-transfer mechanism itself). But the actual power being tranferred, in either case, will be simple electricity (albeit possibly in variations not in use today).

    Where will these "wires" be? The big ones will be in Jefferies tubes. Smaller ones will diverge from there, typically in the interstitial wall spaces or occasionally in the interstitial deck space if there's no contiguous wall volume to pass through. Every so often, they will hit "termination" points (probably also within the wall structure) which will distribute the power to local systems through normal conductors. The only exception to this "step-down-to-normal-conductor" method would be for very-high-power systems... phasers, the main deflector, shield generators, etc.
    Largely, yes. There will be two "engineering rooms" in the primary hull, aligned tangentially rather than radially, on either side of the impulse deck, with each having an energizer set (the tubes) facing towards the impulse system. There will be three dual-fusion reactor sets, with two impulse thrust systems (based in some ways upon the "VASIMR" concept currently in development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_specific_impulse_magnetoplasma_rocket
    One of these rooms will be "primary hull main engineering" while the other will be "impulse engineering control."

    There will also be a single engine room in the secondary hull, with its own "energizer" tube set, linked into the engine pylon feeds. The energizer will be between the pylons, as high as practical, with Main engineering immediately forward of that point.

    Central to my take on this is that the "tubes" are not, in fact, reactor elements at all. They are the devices which convert raw energetic reaction products into useable (aka "electrical") power. They do this through a complicated process including, among other things, sending the high-energy "particle beam" from the reaction through a set of second-periodic-table materials which are capable of withstanding the energy and, in the case of "dilithium" generates an intense electrical field as a result of this process, which in turn becomes useable power in the form of electricity. Make sense so far?

    So, you have the matter-antimatter reaction in the nacelles. You have three sets of twin fusion reactors in the primary hull, and another three in the secondary hull (in that case, covered by the "T" shaped hatch on the underside). So there are two "matter/antimatter reactors" (one in each nacelle) and a total of twelve fusion reactors (in dual-reactor sets, three per hull) which make up the "auxiliary power system." All of which feed their power (in raw reaction-product form) to energizer assemblies, which then pass the "controlled" power through dilithium crystals to convert it to electrical power, which is then further altered by direction through large "transformers" which can be found in each of the engineering bays, and then distributed throughout the ship through the "high-tension line" system (plasma or superconductor based?) to various termination points, where it either gets used directly or gets converted to "safe" power levels for light usage.
    Well, main weapons control is Deck 10. There are a pair of forward facing launchers on that deck (hidden behind slide-away hull panels). There is a single ring corridor, which will be broken at the fore by the torpedo tubes, and with the lift to the aft. The starboard side of the region inside the ring corridor will be the phaser control room. The port side will be the torpedo control room. The outside "ring" (beyond the corridor) will have the carousel torpedo magazine, and the phaser capacitor bank below that. Phaser emitters will be below the deck, facing fwd and to either side (six total). All emitters are protected behind slide-away hull panels as well.

    There may be other phaser emitters in other places. These will be controlled from main phaser control, however, and will have no localized controls. They will likely be in the shallow "wedge" regions in the upper primary hull (again, fwd, port, and stbd).

    As for secondary hull weapons, I've given that very little thought so far. We were never given any reason to assume that the TOS Enterprise had any weapons in that hull, until "In a Mirror Darkly" ("Enterprise," season IV). But I'm not necessarily opposed to having a single aft tube and a few phaser banks back there as well... the trick is to (1) not contradict anything seen on-screen in TOS, (2) have reasonable placements as you'd require for appropriate "360-degree fields of fire" for the ship, and (3) have them fit into reasonable locations in the structure I'm building.
     
  7. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought you might not like the power transfer conduit terminology, and I feel you've adequately explained why other terms might be preferable. Your personal knowledge of engineering seems to be quite beneficial.

    I was curious whether you would go with hidden weapons ports, or assign weapons firing abilities to something already visible. I'm rather glad you seem to have chosen the former. I might suggest you at least go with an aft phaser in the 'IaMD' Defiant location, to make the references to 'forward phaser' make sense.

    Overall, I'm very excited to see what you're outlined above realized. I really applaud the fact that this is a very original take. :techman:
     
  8. Wingsley

    Wingsley Commodore Commodore

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    As I understood it, the EPS technology from TNG thru ENT was meant to suggest the conduits contained a fiery plasma medium which transferred the energy from one part of the ship to another; this might explain the illuminated panels suspended above the corridors: these are exposed EPS conduits, with the plasma visible inside.
     
  9. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A bit more progress this evening...

    The rectangular windows on the starboard side of the secondary hull are in place (less the ones adjacent to the observation gallery), and with that I was confident to do some more internal layout.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Another image, allowing you to see some of the internal windows, plus you can better see the overall arrangement of the landing bay (realize that there will be an inner set of walls, inset from the outer hull by at least a meter and probably more like two meters in most places). You can also more clearly make out the eventual location of "main engineering" (and the energizer "tube set" which will be between the nacelle pylons).

    This is still incomplete, but it's coming together pretty quickly now.

    [​IMG]

    By the way, I did a little experiment last night, and exported to an OBJ file, then imported into Lightwave, 3DSMax, and Maya. The model came in flawlessly in all cases. Note that the native file isn't polygonal at all, so the triangle count is entirely dependent on the export settings I choose. To be "safe" I chose a pretty dense mesh, but plan to experiment with some lower-res versions as well as time goes on. I mention this because I'm considering making this available. Again, note that there are better versions out there for rendering... this is not intended for that purpose. But it does have the advantage of being "walkable." I won't just "put it on the 'net" but I might share with people who I trust to treat it with appropriate respect (and give credit where credit is due). :)

    Here's the OBJ file, exported and imported into Maya, and rendered in Mental Ray with some very basic lighting.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Gepard

    Gepard Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So in its polygonal form, will people be able to carve big holes in it to show all the nuts-and-bolts goodness?
     
  11. USS Mariner

    USS Mariner Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Impressive work. I can't wait to see a walk through tour of your version.
     
  12. Psion

    Psion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps I'm too sensitive. There's something about seeing such a well-executed cross-section of my favorite starship that puts me in the mind of viewing a cadaver that's been sliced in half.

    I may have to excuse myself by the time this is finished.
     
  13. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Gep Malakai said:
    That would be the plan, yeah. Of course, once exported in this fashion, it becomes clusters of non-parametric surface polygons, rather than parametrically-driven solid geometry, so there are things that'll be lost. On the other hand, there may be things GAINED as well.

    I'm an engineer, not an artist... I'd love to see what someone who's really, really good with lighting and texturing could do to make it more fully 3D. I'd love to see someone take it and put some "Poser" people inside a few regions which they'd dressed up to be more "set-like." We've all got our skill sets, and this is mine. I'd love to see someone apply their skills on top of mine here, if they can make it into a better "product" in the process.

    But like I said, I don't intend to just post it and let it float across the whole 'net. I want to remain involved, or at the very least get full credit for my part. :)

    USS Mariner said:
    That's one of those areas which someone else might pick up the ball with... I'm not sure I plan to create a "tour" of the ship that way. Right now, my best ability is to tie a camera to a deck (at a specific height from that deck) and then "dolly" it around. Making this into a "product" for people to take tours with... that's a whole 'nother business.

    Psion said:
    Then I suppose I need to make sure that none of the crew are along the cutting surfaces... could get messy! :)

    Now... to what I've done this evening...

    Not too much, really, at least that anyone would normally notice. However, it's taken a couple of hours to do this "not much."

    First, I've created "Deck 15"... which consists of the transitional room between the dorsal and the secondary hull, and the upper level of the "Strongback" region of the secondary hull. Very little of the detail there will be visible in a normal cross-section view, so I selected the floor of that deck... just so you can see what it's really like.

    [​IMG]

    Basically, there's only one "room" there (which has only one function... it's where a car can be pulled from the lift system for maintenance). Otherwise, the entire region is subdivided (by structural members). Inside of the interstitial spaces between those structural members will be sealed pressure vessels, for storage of various fluids (compressed gasses, water, whatever). Access is only from the next deck down, where there is a rectangular service corridor with all that plumbing and so forth in it.

    A side note - as I thought about what Deck 16 will look like, I realized that I think we've already seen it (not sure if they called it Deck 16 or something else, but as far as I'm concerned, that's what it was). Remember the scene in "In a Mirror Darkly" where they're in full-height service corridors? I've decided that was on Deck 16. (Anyone remember whether or not there was a line in the ep stating what level they were supposed to be on?)

    You can sort of make out things in this view. Deck 15 looks "solid" here, because there are longitudinal structural elements along the centerline, but realise it's not "solid" at all.

    Deck 16 is much more evident. This is really a major "service deck," with heavy structural elements, tons of hardware, and more various tankage and bulk storage.

    You can also note some stuff happening along the underside of the secondary hull, which I'll get to in a moment.

    [​IMG]

    Basically, you can see the underside levels of the secondary hull pretty clearly there. At the aft, there's square hatch, white outlined in red from outside. That's a "cargo lift" airlock (remember, that's the main cargo facility as the taller-than-average deck you see down there). Just forward of that are two more hatches, which are currently not divided, but which will be. The aftmost is the white-outlined-in-grey rectangle... this is also accessible from the cargo deck central corridor, but normally is something like a "bomb bay" for dropping specialized cargos (say, atmospheric seeding to support terraforming projects?).

    I've also got another idea for a function this might serve, being as it's potentially a pass-through from the main cargo deck. Suppose... just SUPPOSE... that occasionally the Enterprise gets a speciality shuttle assigned, like, say, a long-range courier. Maybe that doesn't get stowed with the normal shuttles at all, but could be deployed through the "bomb bay."

    Maybe an "aquashuttle?" Or how about something to carry slaver weapons around? Not part of the normal complement, so not associated with the main hangar. But potentially deployable this way, nevertheless.

    Just forward of that is the light-grey-outlined-in-dark-grey "T" shape hatch, which is a service port for the secondary hull fusion reactors (three two-reactor clusters arranged... shockingly... in a general "T" shape). That will be subdivided, and there will be an unprocessed reactor output feed going up from there towards main engineering.
    Finally, forward of the pair of structural rings you find the circular yellow hatch... this is the deployment carousel for nav-beacon/comm-sats (at least 200 stored in there and deployed at regular intervals as the ship passes through uncharted regions. (They can also be retrofit with big sunlamps, of course!). Forward of that will be the main water reprocessing facility for the ship. And yes, the main tractor beam will be where you probably expect it to be.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Savage Dragon

    Savage Dragon * Not Really Savage Moderator

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    That would be fantastic to see! I really like what your doing here, even if I can't understand half of it!
     
  15. Ziz

    Ziz Commodore Commodore

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    You forgot to say "Damn it, Jim..."
     
  16. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This gets more awesome with each day. :D
     
  17. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A couple more significant updates...

    First... some purely external, purely cosmetic stuff. Best seen here:

    [​IMG]

    Yep, banners and proper colors for the deflector/sensor emplacment. (Plus, the little rings inside the dish.)

    That's the only "render" shot for the moment, because the major thing I've been toying with can better be seen in section views.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Notice it? If not... look closely at the aftmost portion of the secondary hull.

    Yes, I have the basic structure of the landing bay established.

    Here it is, in lateral section.
    [​IMG]

    The one thing I've always assumed was just a mistake, but which we really can't "fix" without changing EVERYTHING, is the location of that little aft "dome" arrangement. I'm sure someone thought it would look like the pivot for the doors, but obviously that's not remotely plausible. So what we end up with is a little "roomlet" that literally overhangs and "hugs" the curvature of the door, without actually being in contact with the door.

    Seeing it from perspective gives a slightly better feel for the spaces around the bay, and of the little "observation dome."
    [​IMG]

    Now, looking aft from the forward wall of the landing bay, you can see how the room looks (though not shot with any form of perspective here... my CAD package doesn't do that, so I have to do that with an external renderer if I want it). There's a lot of space between the hull and the hangar (though it constricts as you move aft, of course). The only real compromise this makes me make is to widen the "observation gallery", and to relocate the exterior observation gallery windows to line up better with the deck. I've decided not to have a "step down" to the gallery... it just makes no sense to me, and the windows will look just fine with the small vertical relocation I'm talking about.

    [​IMG]

    One thing you'll probably notice, here, is that the doors have some detail. You can see, if you sort of "squint" and pretend you're seeing this through a fish-eye lens, that the view is very similar to what's seen on-screen in various TOS episodes (specifically, the relationship of the door to the interior set).

    About those doors... well... I don't have them articulated, but I may choose to add some articulation at a later date. For now, I just wanted to get the details right, but they're solid, with no separate (moving) parts.

    Here's the outside view of this area, close-up.
    [​IMG]

    And to better show how the doors operate, here's a section just a half-meter up from the deck level. Basically, each section of the door slips inside of the next section... nesting sort of like those weird Russian dolls. The reason for this is that I couldn't come up with any practical way to make "concentric" doors (each section being a "leaf" with a different mean diameter) actually SEAL. But this is very easy to seal, and it's more mechanically robust to boot. I'm very happy with it.
    [​IMG]

    One quick question... I know that we've seen in various 3rd-party resources that there were various hatches and markings on the deck, but I don't recall ever seeing those on-screen. Am I mistaken about that?

    EDIT: One thing I almost forgot... I realize that scale may not be immediately apparent to everyone, so I thought I should toss in a figure to help illustrate.

    What I've done here is added two 6'0" tall "Poser" export figures, to provide a sense or proportion. The first is in the landing bay, and the second is standing, effectively, in the middle of Main Engineering.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Stunning! So what are your plans for the red hatch underneath the hanger deck? Workbees as is fairly common these days? Or something else altogether?
     
  19. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, the hatch itself opens to a wide corridor. On either side, in the "slanted" area, is shuttle fuel storage. Once you have a full deck thickness, there are three workbee docking stations per side, (facing outwards from the centerline). The forward portion of this "corridor" leads, through a pressure door, into a cargo stowage area (multiple, normal-sized rooms. There will be a lift going down to the next level, which is also cargo stowage. There is additional access to this lower cargo level through a "cargo lift" (white square with red outline, from the outside).

    So... yeah, there are workbees which enter and exit through there. But they're there mainly to move cargo in and out... the main purpose is cargo transfer. In the case of major damage to the ship, this region will also serve as the main staging area for structural repair work (with repair plating being moved up to this area where it can be carried out and welded into place by the workbees).
     
  20. CuttingEdge100

    CuttingEdge100 Commodore Commodore

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    What about tankage for matter, anti-matter and such?
     
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