DS9 burnt me out on the Ferengi.
I think the actors that played them are to be commended and Armin was just outstanding, but the silliness of Zek and the general goofy theme each time we have one of these episode wore thin over time.
2 stars.
Another Re-watching DS9 thread (spoilers)
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DS9 burnt me out on the Ferengi.
I think the actors that played them are to be commended and Armin was just outstanding, but the silliness of Zek and the general goofy theme each time we have one of these episode wore thin over time.
2 stars.
So sad they chose to get rid of Kia Opaka. I really enjoyed how she was a positive religious figure. But I know DS9 (& trek in general) wants to portray religion as primitive and corrupt, so we need a character like Kia Winn.
Voyager and TNG get pummeled all the time about "technobabble" while DS9 is always lauded for having superior writing. (which I don't agree with) This episode should be crowned as the medical technobabble king.
Let's see.... we need something that regenerates wounds, so how about nano-probes... no, that's the Borg... how about microbes? .... nanites? ... then they have to remain in the system or they die (only when used to revive death), then they can't leave the moon because they made them "environment" specific (because they want Opaka out of the picture)..... eeeshh....
An interesting point about the PD here. Sisko initially commits to beaming everyone off the moon (clearly meddling in the internal affairs of another world) then instead of letting Bashir reprogram the nanites he just beams out of there. I guess the punishment isn't so cruel and unusual anymore, eh? All while making us feel better by telling Opaka "if we can ever find a way" ....pfffft.... really? (that's the writers snickering in the background)
Zero stars for failing on every level and for getting rid of what could have been a great character.
This bracelet was made from a hunk of an orb? ... (slaps forehead) ... really? Did someone just go up with a hammer and pic the orb that creates the lightning bolt zapping stay-puff marshmallow man and chisel off a chunk? lol
How realistic is this approach to uniting a village? Let’s create a bad guy that's purprose is to unite the villagers, but let’s just have him show up 5 times in a row once a year after the harvest is complete regardless of the mood of the village? (slaps forehead again)
This is just another "religion is stupid" Star Trek episode. For GODS sake, the village folks LINED UP THEIR VIRGINS for Obrien!! (no wonder the old Sirah kept his job for so long) The Sirah apprentice tried to KILL Obrien because he HAD to be THE ONE (hearing BAB5's Zathras here).
On a lighter note, I enjoyed the "B" story. I did find it odd that this girl didn't have any security at her cabin and that Jake and Nog just barged right in without an invite. I do think Sisko should have shown this young girl what real war is somehow as she was so eager to go there...
1/2 out of 4 stars because I like Jake and Nog and the Odo bucket joke was pretty darn funny.
(oh, aren't there any Bajoran adults that can represent and negotiate for group of people? Would they really have gone to war because she was stupid and incompetent?)
Jesus.... does anyone in this "advanced" century use frakin solar power? We have to evacuate a livable moon with a self-sustaining eco-system for what? Do dig up some dirt that pollutes the moon and probably Bajor?
This episode is morally just reprehensible. Screw individual rights. Screw the family. And Kira has completely lost her way in this episode. Someone that fought her whole life for Bajoran freedom against oppression ends up forcibly removing someone from their home and property.
"What has happened to my trek?" I said the first time I saw this episode.
I don't buy the lazy story that leads to his mandatory removal, and I don't agree with not only Kira's actions, but how Sisko seems to passively agree with this use of force against individual people. He even suggests he'll replace her if she doesn't "do her job". What IS her job here?
Individual performances aside (loved Brain Keith in this one) this rates about -10 stars from me. The writers completely disregarded what trek is all about here.
At least the "B" story wasn't immoral.
Another skipper for me.
I never felt Sisko and company were ever in any real danger and I don't know why Quark felt that way.
A head shaker.
Baseball, boring?
.5 stars.
Forsaken:
This is one of those stupid episodes that I really like.
Forget the whole computer thing; forget Bashir and Sisko overacting, etc, blah-blah…
The whole episode is watchable for me because of the Lwaxana/Odo moments. So well done. The light comedy before the elevator failure was fantastic. The two play great off each other so well and their moments were genuinely touching heartfelt. Odo is understanding and comforts her when she states she needs to talk and she undresses herself when Odo is falling apart. I almost cried when she took off her wig.
LWAXANA: It looks ordinary. I've never cared to be ordinary. So you see, Odo, even us non-shape-shifters have to change who we are once in a while.
ODO: You are not at all what I expected.
LWAXANA: No one's ever paid me a greater compliment.
Both reveal themselves to each other.
At this point in the series I’m wonder just how good of an actor is Rene Auberjonois? It seems that whomever he is paired up with during a scene is fantastic.
3.0 stars for me.
Dramatis Personae:
It appears that Enterprise learned a lesson from this below average episode.
'Observer Effect" is alien possession done right, this is not.
No drama, Odo was going to save the day. blah, blah...
2 stars because Rene Auberjonois again makes DS9 watchable.
Wow! What a great episode! Even knowing the outcome it's still a powerful episode.
Harris Yulin should have received some sort of award for his performance as Marritza!
I don't know that the death at the end was needed or not. I do think the way he shrouded his identity in a lie at the start is very Cardassian. I will comment on Marritza's motives though. He of course beat himself up as being a coward because he didn't act, but this sacrifice was for his race! This WAS for Cardassia in his view.
===========================================
MARRITZA: No, don't you see? I have to be punished. We all have to be punished. Major, you have to go out and tell them I'm Gul Darhe'el. It's the only way.
KIRA: Why are you doing this?
MARRITZA: For Cardassia. Cardassia will only survive if it stands in front of Bajor and admits the truth. My trial will force Cardassia to acknowledge its guilt. And we're guilty, all of us. My death is necessary.
=============================================
Great development for Kira in this episode as well. She's gone from "their all guilty" to:
"What you're asking for is another murder. Enough good people have already died. I won't help kill another."
I also liked the way Sisko handled this whole issue.
IMO, DS9's best episode of the 1st season.
Easy 4 stars.
In the Hands of the Prophets:
What a great S1 closer. This episode completely set the tone for the next 6 years of DS9 and did it very well.
I've read all the great comments above (great discussion) and have a couple things to say.
I never for one second thought that KIA winn was a true believer, never. My justification for this is - can you for a second see KIA Opaka resorting to the immoral/illegal acts that Winn did to gain and retain the KIA position? I think the answer to that is a resounding no. Opaka was a true religious leader in the best sense of the word and Winn was a wannabe that had no moral compass and only wanted power.
This episode DOES depict extremes. Religious extremists existed here long before 911. I love how this episode depicts politicians for what they are. They will fire up whatever group they need to achieve their goals (or win elections). Even Vedic Berial understands that in order for him to make change, he needs to win the KIA election and he knows that if he comes off as extreme he has no chance to win. So he plays the game. I'm sure the same goes on electing the Pope and I know it goes on in politics. They are all forced to play the game, regardless of intentions. And, as we see in politics here, Sisko and Berial took advantage of a "crisis" to play their angle too. (even though Winn set it up) So politics is politics, regardless of whether you're a "true believer" or not.
We have had the "Evolution vs Intelligent Design" war here for 50 years. This episode brings to light that dilemma in trek (for the first time I believe).
Aside from his delivery, I love Sisko's speech to the crowd. Just because the Federation doesn't create policy and educate based on religious beliefs, doesn't make them "the devil".
Keiko... what a b@##$#@$@#. Obrien should have definitely said YES!! :-) I do agree with her stance on teaching the facts and commend her for not wavering. I do think she could have brought out that the Bajoran beliefs would be taught in another class. (maybe she did, I can't remember)
I personally thought the best part and most important part of the entire episode was Sisko's exchange with Jake:
"JAKE: How could anyone be so stupid?
SISKO: It's easy to look back seven centuries and judge what was right and wrong.
JAKE: But the same thing is happening now with all this stuff about the Celestial Temple in the wormhole. It's dumb.
SISKO: No, it's not. You've got to realize something, Jake. For over fifty years, the one thing that allowed the Bajorans to survive the Cardassian occupation was their faith. The Prophets were their only source of hope and courage.
JAKE: But there were no Prophets. They were just some aliens that you found in the wormhole.
SISKO: To those aliens, the future is no more difficult to see than the past. Why shouldn't they be considered Prophets?
JAKE: Are you serious?
SISKO: My point is, it's a matter of interpretation. It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong. If you start to think that way, you'll be acting just like Vedek Winn, Only from the other side. We can't afford to think that way, Jake. We'd lose everything we've worked for here"
Militant atheists and zealots could learn a lesson here.
I think this episode should be shown in schools (high school and college) and be the basis for outstanding discussion with the students.
4 out of 4 stars for me. Right below "Duet" in my DS9 S1 rankings.
What a great S1 closer. This episode completely set the tone for the next 6 years of DS9 and did it very well.
I've read all the great comments above (great discussion) and have a couple things to say.
I never for one second thought that KIA winn was a true believer, never. My justification for this is - can you for a second see KIA Opaka resorting to the immoral/illegal acts that Winn did to gain and retain the KIA position? I think the answer to that is a resounding no. Opaka was a true religious leader in the best sense of the word and Winn was a wannabe that had no moral compass and only wanted power.
This episode DOES depict extremes. Religious extremists existed here long before 911. I love how this episode depicts politicians for what they are. They will fire up whatever group they need to achieve their goals (or win elections). Even Vedic Berial understands that in order for him to make change, he needs to win the KIA election and he knows that if he comes off as extreme he has no chance to win. So he plays the game. I'm sure the same goes on electing the Pope and I know it goes on in politics. They are all forced to play the game, regardless of intentions. And, as we see in politics here, Sisko and Berial took advantage of a "crisis" to play their angle too. (even though Winn set it up) So politics is politics, regardless of whether you're a "true believer" or not.
We have had the "Evolution vs Intelligent Design" war here for 50 years. This episode brings to light that dilemma in trek (for the first time I believe).
Aside from his delivery, I love Sisko's speech to the crowd. Just because the Federation doesn't create policy and educate based on religious beliefs, doesn't make them "the devil".
Keiko... what a b@##$#@$@#. Obrien should have definitely said YES!! :-) I do agree with her stance on teaching the facts and commend her for not wavering. I do think she could have brought out that the Bajoran beliefs would be taught in another class. (maybe she did, I can't remember)
I personally thought the best part and most important part of the entire episode was Sisko's exchange with Jake:
"JAKE: How could anyone be so stupid?
SISKO: It's easy to look back seven centuries and judge what was right and wrong.
JAKE: But the same thing is happening now with all this stuff about the Celestial Temple in the wormhole. It's dumb.
SISKO: No, it's not. You've got to realize something, Jake. For over fifty years, the one thing that allowed the Bajorans to survive the Cardassian occupation was their faith. The Prophets were their only source of hope and courage.
JAKE: But there were no Prophets. They were just some aliens that you found in the wormhole.
SISKO: To those aliens, the future is no more difficult to see than the past. Why shouldn't they be considered Prophets?
JAKE: Are you serious?
SISKO: My point is, it's a matter of interpretation. It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong. If you start to think that way, you'll be acting just like Vedek Winn, Only from the other side. We can't afford to think that way, Jake. We'd lose everything we've worked for here"
Militant atheists and zealots could learn a lesson here.
I think this episode should be shown in schools (high school and college) and be the basis for outstanding discussion with the students.
4 out of 4 stars for me. Right below "Duet" in my DS9 S1 rankings.
I'm not sure I would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Obviously it has its issues, and I would rate it probably the same way: sort of good in parts. However, I would not judge it for being reductive in terms of legal realities. Indeed, there is not reason to believe that the Federation would negotiate extradition where the death penalty is possible. That said, TV is reductive, and too many things get oversimplified for the audience,not just the law. I certainly can watch and enjoy Big Bang Theory despite its shallow take on academia.
Excellent reviews! Many thanks, Yanks, for these perceptive, witty, and thoughtful reviews from a true fan. By a true fan, I mean one that takes the issues seriously and works with them. Great work. Hope you'll keep it up!+++
I'm a bit behind the thread now. Some general opinions in regard to what's been discussed so far:
The Circle trilogy was an excellent way to start the season, and certainly grabbed my attention, as it was when I started watching the show. I though Nana Visitor, Louise Fletcher and Frank Langella were all excellent.
Jadzia Dax was one of my favourite characters when I was younger, but I think I her episodes were never really the better ones. I did enjoy season one's Dax though.
I used to love the Ferengi more when I was younger too, but their humour hasn't aged well. I still like Little Green Men and The Magnificent Ferengi, but outside of Armin Shimerman (who was excellent as Quark), and Nog, the Ferengi actors weren't that strong. Or they might have been, but were hamstrung with poor material.
The Circle trilogy was an excellent way to start the season, and certainly grabbed my attention, as it was when I started watching the show. I though Nana Visitor, Louise Fletcher and Frank Langella were all excellent.
Jadzia Dax was one of my favourite characters when I was younger, but I think I her episodes were never really the better ones. I did enjoy season one's Dax though.
I used to love the Ferengi more when I was younger too, but their humour hasn't aged well. I still like Little Green Men and The Magnificent Ferengi, but outside of Armin Shimerman (who was excellent as Quark), and Nog, the Ferengi actors weren't that strong. Or they might have been, but were hamstrung with poor material.
DS9 fan "Bolty" posted a great list of the best episodes of DS9. He took the 176 "hours" of the show, and boiled it down to about 80. Here's his list for the first two seasons:
1. Emissary part 1--pilot
2. Emissary part 2-- pilot
19. Duet--cardassian war criminal……..my fan choice #1
20. Hands of the Prophets--intro Kai Winn, season 1 ender
21. Homecoming--Bajoran coup trilogy 1,season 2 opener
22. Circle--part 2
23. Siege--part 3
39. Blood Oath--re-intro Kang, Kor and Koloth
40. Maquis part 1--intro of the maquis movement
41. Maquis part 2--
43. Crossover--first “mirror” episode
46. Jem’ Hadar--beginning of the Founders arc, season 2 ender
In other words, for the first two seasons he boils down 46 episodes to a list of 12 of the best and most essential shows. I like this list a lot, but if I were adding some episodes, here's where I'd add:
3. Past Prologue
6. Captive Pursuit
12. Vortex
25. Cardassians
28. Necessary Evil
34. Whispers
45. Tribunal
Are there any other good episodes from the first two seasons I've missed?
1. Emissary part 1--pilot
2. Emissary part 2-- pilot
19. Duet--cardassian war criminal……..my fan choice #1
20. Hands of the Prophets--intro Kai Winn, season 1 ender
21. Homecoming--Bajoran coup trilogy 1,season 2 opener
22. Circle--part 2
23. Siege--part 3
39. Blood Oath--re-intro Kang, Kor and Koloth
40. Maquis part 1--intro of the maquis movement
41. Maquis part 2--
43. Crossover--first “mirror” episode
46. Jem’ Hadar--beginning of the Founders arc, season 2 ender
In other words, for the first two seasons he boils down 46 episodes to a list of 12 of the best and most essential shows. I like this list a lot, but if I were adding some episodes, here's where I'd add:
3. Past Prologue
6. Captive Pursuit
12. Vortex
25. Cardassians
28. Necessary Evil
34. Whispers
45. Tribunal
Are there any other good episodes from the first two seasons I've missed?
I think Progress in season one was really good, showing Kira trying to deal with the old man. It shows how much she has had to change to fit into her new role on DS9, and Nana Visitor was really good in it.
I also think The Wire needs to be included in season two. It's an excellent Garak episode where we see Tain for the first time as well.
I would also stick in The Collaborator as well, but that depends on how much you enjoy Bajoran politics. Otherwise I agree with all of your other additions.
I also think The Wire needs to be included in season two. It's an excellent Garak episode where we see Tain for the first time as well.
I would also stick in The Collaborator as well, but that depends on how much you enjoy Bajoran politics. Otherwise I agree with all of your other additions.
I guess I'm a freak, because I almost always love the episodes that deal with Bajoran politics. I agree with all of the episodes you mention for the extended "best of DS9."
I liked the Bajoran politics episodes as well. I think it reflects the fact that the writers were more interested in Kira rather than in exploring the depths of local politics.
A) DS9 was extremely positive toward religion. The Prophets saved the AQ and Sisko ended up accepting their will completely. Winn is really the only negative religious figure in the show and she was working against her religion. She's more in the category of 'Religious politician' than religious figure.
B) I disagree Progress was immoral. That analysis is very reactionary, expecting Bajor to sacrifice development because one old man doesn't want to move after fifty years of occupation is ridiculous. If anything Progress is the first episode of the show to use nuanced, pragmatic morality instead of standard TV Insurrection-style protectionist morality.
C) I agree Nagus gets way too cartoonish after Moogie shows up but I love that one line in Nagus. "Malicious lies spread by our competitors that we are not to be trusted!"
B) I disagree Progress was immoral. That analysis is very reactionary, expecting Bajor to sacrifice development because one old man doesn't want to move after fifty years of occupation is ridiculous. If anything Progress is the first episode of the show to use nuanced, pragmatic morality instead of standard TV Insurrection-style protectionist morality.
C) I agree Nagus gets way too cartoonish after Moogie shows up but I love that one line in Nagus. "Malicious lies spread by our competitors that we are not to be trusted!"
Thing Sisko started the season as a troubled man who was obviously struggling with his wife's death, don't forget that while he was assigned to the station it was not a post he wanted and was actually considering his position within starfleet. This changed when he realised that he had not truly move on and had to move forward in his life.
Not reactionary at all. A man and his family are forcibly removed from their home and their private property taken by the government. Aside form the stupid reasoning this episode proposes, this action and the Federations' support and Sisko's "make them move now or your fired" mentality are nothing short of immoral.
Like I said, it didn't happen yesterday. Sisko was sent here because he had to care for his son and Jake could accompany him. A choice he made. He could have taken Worf's approach and dumped his responsibilities off on his parents. I commend him for not doing that. None of this changes the fact that Picard is his senior officer and he disrespected him; something that should have been addressed.
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