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Another Nemesis Question...

^Sisko said that Worf "probably wo[uld]n't be offered a command of [his] own after this." He only stated it as a probability, not a certainty. And even if he had said "definitely," it would still only have been his opinion, his best guess as to what Worf's future held as a result of that event. So it doesn't rule out the prospect that Worf's later heroic actions could've redeemed him in Starfleet's eyes, or that someone else in the Starfleet hierarchy might simply have disagreed with Sisko about the severity of Worf's mistake. I mean, really, if Jean-Luc Picard wants to appoint Worf as his first officer despite his actions at Soukara, then he's not going to let a single bad report from Ben Sisko stop him.
 
Nope, it's "Change of Heart." Scroll to the bottom of the transcript here:

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/540.htm

Sisko did give Worf a dressing down in "Rules of Engagement" (transcript) but afterward, he softened and said, "And that's why despite everything that's happened you're going to make a hell of a captain some day." So he pretty much said the exact opposite there.
 
Of course, after the Dominion War, and the losses therein, Starfleet would probably reconsider anyone with "minor" transgressions for command.
 
Of course, after the Dominion War, and the losses therein, Starfleet would probably reconsider anyone with "minor" transgressions for command.

Worf also left Starfleet right after the Dominion war and while he was a part of the Enterprise crew in Nemesis the comic book prequel to the 2009 showed Worf in commmand a fleet of BOPs. So while the novels show Worf's career going in one direction the comic book prequel shows him in another direction.
 
Worf was always being torn between being a Starfleet officer and going off to do proper Klingon stuff. There's probably been another shift in power and a Redemption-like reason for him leading a fleet of Bird of Preys.

Off hand, I don't recall any specific mention what condition he was in, when beamed back to the Enterprise-E...
other than getting impaled like Captain Robau but in more explicit detail. Maybe Worf doesn't pull through.

Maybe the comic book writers took the same ruthless option they applied to Romulus, that Berman-era Trek probably would've taken putting him up against the latest big-bad.
 
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Off hand, I don't recall any specific mention what condition he was in, when beamed back to the Enterprise-E...
other than getting impaled like Captain Robau but in more explicit detail. Maybe Worf doesn't pull through.

Worf was fine at the end of Nemesis. We heard his voice on the intercom in the final scene.
 
Worf was fine at the end of Nemesis. We heard his voice on the intercom in the final scene.
We crossed wires somewhere along the line, I'm afraid. :)

I was actually speculating about something unclear in the Countdown graphic novel, prequel to Star Trek 2009.

In response to this... taking the liberty to throw in a couple of commas.
Worf also left Starfleet right after the Dominion war and while he was a part of the Enterprise crew in Nemesis (,) the comic book prequel to the 2009 showed Worf in commmand a fleet of BOPs. So while the novels show Worf's career going in one direction (,) the comic book prequel shows him in another direction.
 
^You realize Picard was talking about Data in that quote, right?

Data wasn't going to be the next first officer as far as I know Troi still outranked him.
Rank doesn't determine who is going to hold what position. Troi outranked Data, being a full commander while he was a lieutenant commander. But Data was always Troi's superior officer in the chain of command of the Enterprise. He was third in command, right behind Picard and Riker. This was stated many times during the run of the series.

If rank alone were to determine that sort of promotion, then Crusher would be in line before Troi. But they are both science/medical officers who, despite holding command rank and having passed the bridge officers test, are not directly in the chain of command. Yes, they can take command if needed, as Crusher did in "Descent." But that's not normal for them, nor would a move to a command position be.
 
^You realize Picard was talking about Data in that quote, right?

Data wasn't going to be the next first officer as far as I know Troi still outranked him.
Rank doesn't determine who is going to hold what position. Troi outranked Data, being a full commander while he was a lieutenant commander. But Data was always Troi's superior officer in the chain of command of the Enterprise. He was third in command, right behind Picard and Riker. This was stated many times during the run of the series.

If rank alone were to determine that sort of promotion, then Crusher would be in line before Troi. But they are both science/medical officers who, despite holding command rank and having passed the bridge officers test, are not directly in the chain of command. Yes, they can take command if needed, as Crusher did in "Descent." But that's not normal for them, nor would a move to a command position be.

Troi didn't gain that rank til the final season and it was the result of events in Disaster. By the final season they were even allowing Crusher to take command of the night shift from time to time. In Best Of Both Worlds, Riker did say that Data's programming omits ambition so both he and Worf were passed over for the job of first officer. Worf was Riker's first officer in an alternate reality in Parallels.
 
Riker did not say that Data was passed over because his nature omits ambition. He was making the point that Data would not be upset or offended at being passed over, but that he wanted to explain his reasons anyway. Riker chose Shelby over Data and Worf because of the unique circumstances, and says so. Riker, as captain at that point, could choose whomever he wanted. But if Riker had been captured or killed without designating a successor, the next in the chain of command would have been Data and he would have assumed command as he did on more than one occasion. Never would it automatically fall to Crusher or Troi or any other science or medical officer unless they were the only command-level officers left.

I'm not sure what the point of contention is here. We know that Data was third in command. He is identified clearly as second officer and third in command on numerous occasions throughout the series. He takes command when Picard and Riker are out of commission on more than one occasion. And the dialogue at the beginning of Nemesis makes it perfectly clear that Data is the new first officer.
 
Riker did not say that Data was passed over because his nature omits ambition. He was making the point that Data would not be upset or offended at being passed over, but that he wanted to explain his reasons anyway.

I didn't say that was the reason why all I said was that he stated Data's programming obmots amtion not the same thing at all. Sebly wanted the job of first officer from the start and Worf and Data still have more experience with the Borg than she did.
 
First off, I'm not sure that Riker was correct in his assessment of Data's programming. I think ambition is a part of what makes Data tick. And we see him rather concerned when passed up for commanding a ship of the fleet in "Redemption, Part II."

Second, I'm also not sure what relevance any of this has on the discussion of Nemesis. It's still clear, regardless of that issue, that Data was set to become first officer once Riker left to command the Titan. The only reason he didn't is because he was killed before he could assume the post.
 
That's the episode where Worf chooses saving Dax over saving the Dominion defector with who-knows-how-much useful information. Sisko puts Worf on report, saying that although he understands, it was essentially the wrong call, and Worf is unlikely ever to be considered for command as a consequence of his decision.

^Sisko said that Worf "probably wo[uld]n't be offered a command of [his] own after this." He only stated it as a probability, not a certainty. And even if he had said "definitely," it would still only have been his opinion, his best guess as to what Worf's future held as a result of that event. So it doesn't rule out the prospect that Worf's later heroic actions could've redeemed him in Starfleet's eyes, or that someone else in the Starfleet hierarchy might simply have disagreed with Sisko about the severity of Worf's mistake. I mean, really, if Jean-Luc Picard wants to appoint Worf as his first officer despite his actions at Soukara, then he's not going to let a single bad report from Ben Sisko stop him.


thanks, both! :techman:
 
...at the end if Nemesis, why wasn't Worf promoted to first officer of the Enterprise after Riker assumed command of the Titan??

Who says he wasn't? As far as canonical evidence goes, and discounting deleted scenes that aren't actual parts of the final story, we don't know who got the first officer gig. It was as likely to be Worf as anyone else. Which is why the novels were able to establish that it was Worf.

I always look forward to your replies. It keeps me on my toes. :) So we know by the deleted scenes that Mark Madden is now the new first officer. We also know that in Generations that Geordi gets tortured, but that scene is a deleted scene and as far as I know, doesn't appear on any DVD or VHS video. So does that make it not canon?? No offense to you or anything, I'm just asking, but who says that it's not canon just because it maybe on one cut of a DVD, but not another. I'm just curious. Worf really should have been the next first officer. To me it falls in line with what happened with Worf when Tasha was killed. He had to take over the job for a fallen comrade then, and would be the case again in just a small bit of irony. Also, I posed the question of what if also at the end of the movie, Worf's son Alexander to the surprise of Worf and the audience, he's now a member of the Enterprise crew instead of trying to be a Klingon warrior with the Klingons. What do you think of that idea?? Would it have worked?
 
So we know by the deleted scenes that Mark Madden is now the new first officer. We also know that in Generations that Geordi gets tortured, but that scene is a deleted scene and as far as I know, doesn't appear on any DVD or VHS video. So does that make it not canon??

If it's deleted, then it's not in the movie. It's not an actual part of the finished story, any more than the chunks of marble left on a sculptor's floor are part of the finished sculpture. Editing and removing things is a basic part of the creative process. You try things out, decide they don't work, and remove them as you hone in on the final version of the thing you're creating. If a scene is removed from a film, then it is not meant to be part of the story. That should be self-evident. The problem is that including deleted material on DVDs has become so routine that some people mistakenly see them as part of the overall film rather than material that was purposefully removed because it didn't work as part of the film. Deleted scenes aren't supposed to be part of the actual movie. They're just a glimpse at the leftovers and might-have-beens.


No offense to you or anything, I'm just asking, but who says that it's not canon just because it maybe on one cut of a DVD, but not another.

If it's actually included in a version of the film itself, then yes, it is part of the story in that version. That makes it "real." But if it is only included as a bonus feature, if it's separate from the body of the film, then it is not meant to be part of the story. It's something they deliberately chose to exclude from the story, and it does not count.

And Stuart Baird has made it clear that there will never be a "Director's Cut" of Nemesis. The film that showed in theaters was the final version of the film as he wanted it. So there's no reason to expect that any of the deleted scenes will ever be restored to the film (even though the Picard-Data scene after the wedding reception really should've been left in).

And let's face it, that Martin Madden scene was very, very bad. It was awkward, it was unfunny, it was inappropriately frivolous in the wake of Data's death, and it stretched out the ending of the film longer than it needed to be. It was cut out of the film for very good reasons.


Worf really should have been the next first officer.

And in the novels, he is.


Also, I posed the question of what if also at the end of the movie, Worf's son Alexander to the surprise of Worf and the audience, he's now a member of the Enterprise crew instead of trying to be a Klingon warrior with the Klingons. What do you think of that idea?? Would it have worked?

I see absolutely no point to that. It would be an even more gratuitous intrusion into the story than the Madden scene was. Movies are a medium that require compactness and efficency of storytelling. They aren't novels where you can cram in all sorts of side stories and details. You have to keep the storytelling tightly focused and not waste time including elements that don't add anything to the story. (Which is another reason the Madden scene was dumped. It wasn't important to the film's story to establish a new first officer.) Alexander joining Starfleet is a story of its own; it's not something you can just tack onto the end of a completely unrelated story.
 
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