That's damning Voyager (and Enterprise) with faint praise, isn't it?
Another board talks about Voyager, mainly dislikes.
- Thread starter Mr. Scott
- Start date
Meaning that Voyager was a long running show and lasted longer than most cult TV shows today?
Were these posts new because they last were fresh sometime around 2002 or so. 
Under that logic, Star Trek was HORRIBLE because of "Spock's Brain" and TNG was the WORST SHOW EVER because of "Code of Honor", "Shades of Grey", "Genesis", "Sub Rosa", "Masks". And DS9, with "Ferengi Love Songs", "Profit and Lace", "His Way", "Valiant", no show like that could ever be good.
Let's look at Babylon 5, the CGI pioneer. The Shadows were CGI, the Vorlons were a guy in a costume, and everyone else was a bunch of "foreheads"- Narns, Centauri, Minbari, Drazi, etc. And we've seen lizard-skinned people a few times in Voyager (look like Drazi), so it isn't just a series of butt-heads.
We've seen a bunch of shows with crews that are at each others throats all the time (SGU for example) and they get crappy after some time (the drama is often forced, drama for the sake of drama). Seeing how they did it, it reflects better on Voyager and how they did it, not that it was handled perfect. DS9 still kept a Star Trek atmosphere even during the war. What these people wanted Voyager to be was the Equinox.
I think the Beltran issue (which is half him, half the producers) is perhaps Voyager's most widely known flaw. He spoke up while Kim & Neelix remained quiet about Seven & the Doctor getting most of the episodes allotted for a single character. I've never heard complaints about the rest of the cast phoning it in, just Beltran, and the gelling... I thought Voyager's cast gelled faster than the others, with the big issue being Beltran vs. the producers and Mulgrew's view that there's only room for one alpha female on the set (Mulgrew vs. Ryan). It didn't seem like her hostilities seeped into the Janeway-Seven scenes though.
I'm surprised, no complaints about being able to make photon torpedoes (though after 2 years, one would think they could make the technology to make torpedoes and get the skill to manufacture torpedoes by then) or about endless energy (ignoring they used Neelix's cooking most of the time)? The shuttles are a legitimate complaint.
"Life Line" was a pretentious piece of garbage that was straight out of a cheesy 80s drama. "Father, help me help you". Ugh. That was Picardo's idea. Not sure whose idea was behind "Virtuoso", "Body and Soul", or the Doctor getting a pass with treason in "Flesh and Blood" because he trusts holograms more than the crew he was with for 7 years and the crew that allowed him to expand his personality/identity. He's still a good actor, which made the choice of a 3rd commander for Stargate Atlantis in as many years more bearable. Before Voyager I recognised him from The Wonder Years and that minor part in The 'burbs (a sadly invisible movie for as good as it is). The Doctor was a great character until he became so obnoxious and became overexposed (Seasons 6-7).
Under that logic, Star Trek was HORRIBLE because of "Spock's Brain" and TNG was the WORST SHOW EVER because of "Code of Honor", "Shades of Grey", "Genesis", "Sub Rosa", "Masks". And DS9, with "Ferengi Love Songs", "Profit and Lace", "His Way", "Valiant", no show like that could ever be good. All of Star Trek is guilty of this. Voyager being a show constantly moving limited having recurring races like Klingons or Romulans throughout the run (beyond those shoehorned in). And CGI was still rather early on back in Voyager's run. In the '00s, wholly CGI races can be a dime a dozen, but back then, Species 8472 was a bit of a big deal. Foreheads were the cheap/easy way to make aliens because CGI takes technology, time, money, and Star Trek had been geared to churn out episodes without CGI, so they were used to using the old formula when new technology meant it could change. I think these people forget sci-fi's roots in having miniscule budgets, which is why B-movie monsters were so hokey and why people like Harryhausen were so celebrated for making what was cheap look somewhat lifelike and cool.
Let's look at Babylon 5, the CGI pioneer. The Shadows were CGI, the Vorlons were a guy in a costume, and everyone else was a bunch of "foreheads"- Narns, Centauri, Minbari, Drazi, etc. And we've seen lizard-skinned people a few times in Voyager (look like Drazi), so it isn't just a series of butt-heads.
I'm so tired of all of this whining. These people got what they wanted. It's called Battlestar Galactica. We all saw how that worked. "Year of Hell" gets the same complaints, even though the flip-side of the reset button was they were able to damage the ship far more than they ever would have been able to do normally. Seriously, in Part 2, that ship would've been scrapped, not overhauled, not retrofitted.
We've seen a bunch of shows with crews that are at each others throats all the time (SGU for example) and they get crappy after some time (the drama is often forced, drama for the sake of drama). Seeing how they did it, it reflects better on Voyager and how they did it, not that it was handled perfect. DS9 still kept a Star Trek atmosphere even during the war. What these people wanted Voyager to be was the Equinox.
What those guys were expecting was a show where the entire crew, with no exceptions, would have to have completely fallen to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.
With limited resources that wouldn't be the first choice, no.
As for the Voyager cast "gelling": I heard Aron Eisenberg--Nog on DS9 and the young Kazon on Voyager's "Initiations"--say that the Voyager cast he met was far more relaxed and enjoyable than the DS9 cast overall. There was more tension with the DS9 cast.
This was Eisenberg speaking in 2001. Yeah, I remember it pretty clearly, since I got to see so many cast members that day.
This was Eisenberg speaking in 2001. Yeah, I remember it pretty clearly, since I got to see so many cast members that day.
I never heard anything about tension on the DS9 cast until now. The word I've heard was, they were more "professional" on the set. The cast of DS9 are a different calibur of actors next to Voyager's as well. Then we have to take into account tension didn't develope on the set of Voyager until Lien was fired and Ryan introduced. Long after Eisenberg made his guest appearance.
I don't get the hate on it, but I'm more inclined to not pay attention to a show in a group of shows that I don't like than hate on it. I'll watch the ones I like or even if I don't like one a lot I may like a season of it (in my case Star Trek: Enterprise - season 3 when they're tracking down the Xindi - that whole season was the best as far as I'm concerned, but that's my preference). I got bored with DS9 but loved Voyager, yet I don't trash DS9 because there are people that loved it. I don't even like the original Star Trek. I felt it was kind of cheesy. I only began actually liking Star Trek when TNG came along. But still, I don't hate on them.
I've noticed that there's a faction of hardcore Star Trek devotees that have this idea of what all things Star Trek should be. I've also noticed that within that faction they tend to really only feel the original Trek with Kirk and Spok are pure and everything else is not up to standard. TNG may get some leeway because it was the first TV venture beyond the original. Everything else though seems to be demonized, which I don't get.
By my way of thinking, all the Treks are going to have their own feel to them. They have to given the fact that it's a different crew in a different setting with different circumstances. DS9 was not a ship, but it was still part of the federation and built into the whole Trek verse. Enterprise was set much earlier and came at it from a much different approach giving you ideas about how the prime directive came to be (based on their experiences and what things influenced future exploration and allowing other species into the federation). I didn't love that series barring that one season that I think rocked, but having watched all of it, I found it to fit rather well into the Trek continuum.
I've also witnessed the same with Star Wars diehard fans. Certain movies are considered heresy. People sometimes even hate them before seeing them. Same with movies made from comics. It's like there is an inability to enjoy it for what it is. It has to adhere exactly to the original otherwise there is a lot of hate on it because the purity is lost. That's just a little to Nazi for me, but that's how fans can be. They don't realize that anytime another movie or TV show is made it's opening a door to a whole new group of fans. Instead, they go in that 'it must be pure' Nazi direction, which, to me, indicates that they really need to get a life. (meant to be sarcastic rather than rude though to the Nazi's it would probably be grounds for death).
I've noticed that there's a faction of hardcore Star Trek devotees that have this idea of what all things Star Trek should be. I've also noticed that within that faction they tend to really only feel the original Trek with Kirk and Spok are pure and everything else is not up to standard. TNG may get some leeway because it was the first TV venture beyond the original. Everything else though seems to be demonized, which I don't get.
By my way of thinking, all the Treks are going to have their own feel to them. They have to given the fact that it's a different crew in a different setting with different circumstances. DS9 was not a ship, but it was still part of the federation and built into the whole Trek verse. Enterprise was set much earlier and came at it from a much different approach giving you ideas about how the prime directive came to be (based on their experiences and what things influenced future exploration and allowing other species into the federation). I didn't love that series barring that one season that I think rocked, but having watched all of it, I found it to fit rather well into the Trek continuum.
I've also witnessed the same with Star Wars diehard fans. Certain movies are considered heresy. People sometimes even hate them before seeing them. Same with movies made from comics. It's like there is an inability to enjoy it for what it is. It has to adhere exactly to the original otherwise there is a lot of hate on it because the purity is lost. That's just a little to Nazi for me, but that's how fans can be. They don't realize that anytime another movie or TV show is made it's opening a door to a whole new group of fans. Instead, they go in that 'it must be pure' Nazi direction, which, to me, indicates that they really need to get a life. (meant to be sarcastic rather than rude though to the Nazi's it would probably be grounds for death).
Hate feels good.
Constructing the perfect hate takes practice.
Constructing the perfect hate takes practice.
To each their own. If they enjoy their hate, good for them.
It's still quite amusing to watch from a non-hate standpoint.
It's still quite amusing to watch from a non-hate standpoint.
Fans can be weird.
Many seem to like just *one* thing and hate everything else, which seems very weird to me. It seems like most people (or the most vocal people) have just a love setting and a hate setting on their fandom knob. There's no decent, no "it's ok", no "meh. It's better than what else is on at the time" settings.
I really like Voyager (Seasons 1-5), but I watched DS9 alongside VOY in the '90s. VOY was my preferred choice, but DS9 was still enjoyable (... past Season 1). I also liked TNG. I like B-movies and campy sci-fi too, so I could enjoy the original Star Trek, but I rank it 4th in the franchise. I watched Enterprise. It was somewhat enjoyable at times, but was a flawed show (Season 3 was still among the best Star Trek out there). Of course I found the TNG movies to be crappy and won't even waste my time with the reboot movie. Yet despite liking most of Star Trek, it's still a bunch of tv shows to me. I had never had any desire to dress up in a costume or attend a convention. It's just quality television to me.
I wonder, those people, those who love 1 series and H-A-T-E most of the others, are quite vocal, but how about those of us who don't hate every series, who find most of it ok or watchable? Are we a silent majority, or a silent minority in a polarized fanbase?
Many seem to like just *one* thing and hate everything else, which seems very weird to me. It seems like most people (or the most vocal people) have just a love setting and a hate setting on their fandom knob. There's no decent, no "it's ok", no "meh. It's better than what else is on at the time" settings.
I really like Voyager (Seasons 1-5), but I watched DS9 alongside VOY in the '90s. VOY was my preferred choice, but DS9 was still enjoyable (... past Season 1). I also liked TNG. I like B-movies and campy sci-fi too, so I could enjoy the original Star Trek, but I rank it 4th in the franchise. I watched Enterprise. It was somewhat enjoyable at times, but was a flawed show (Season 3 was still among the best Star Trek out there). Of course I found the TNG movies to be crappy and won't even waste my time with the reboot movie. Yet despite liking most of Star Trek, it's still a bunch of tv shows to me. I had never had any desire to dress up in a costume or attend a convention. It's just quality television to me.
I wonder, those people, those who love 1 series and H-A-T-E most of the others, are quite vocal, but how about those of us who don't hate every series, who find most of it ok or watchable? Are we a silent majority, or a silent minority in a polarized fanbase?
Your Neelix hate, that's a masterpiece if I do say so. I've always admired it greatly.
Imagine how Stargate SG1 would have gone if O'Neal had teamed up with Neelix instead of Teal'c in the pilot?
Janeway let this hedghog on board because he seemed harmless, unfortunately harmless is another word for useless.
I must say that I really didn't hate Voyager. Yes, some episodes were bad, terrible. But those were a minority and what show hasn't had some? Like the hippy episode on TOS. But Voyager was the most disappointing show for me. Why? I remember reading about it as a new series. I was excited, really excited. The concept of a Federation starship stuck decades from home, with no support and having to take in crew from a hostile ship was very exciting indeed. I really liked the idea of a female captain (about time I said). IMO it had the most potential of all the Star Trek series. But, as a whole, the best it got was mediocre (ok, there were a few, very few, episodes that I thought were good). There was so many episodes that I watched (and I watched every one of them) that I thought 'wow, this could get really cool' and, again, was disappointed. I know, 'to each his own', but now I watch SGU (which is not perfect by any means) and think of many ways of how Voyager could have been. Too bad they couldn't do it over with a different producer (which, IMO, was the biggest problem).
My biggest gripe with this subforum of trekbbs is the lengths people will go to in order to defend terrible inconsistent writing. "they just made more shuttles, they just made more torpedos, janeway was perfect and never acted irrationally and if you think she did you are SEXISTS!"
Geez.
Really the way the show evolved Voyager was a self replicating ship they just never spoke it about it in cannon. To me that killed any and all tension because there were no consequences.
Comfort food indeed.
Geez.
Really the way the show evolved Voyager was a self replicating ship they just never spoke it about it in cannon. To me that killed any and all tension because there were no consequences.
Comfort food indeed.
DS9 did a big war story and no one in the main cast died except the one who had a contract dispute.
No consequences there either.
I guess you hated how Moya in Farscape was an organic ship that could regenerate nearly all damage between episodes as well, hm?
Seriously, if you were expecting the show to be about the crew all becoming space pirates who went around raping the Delta Quadrant, you deserved to be disappointed.
No consequences there either.
I guess you hated how Moya in Farscape was an organic ship that could regenerate nearly all damage between episodes as well, hm?
Seriously, if you were expecting the show to be about the crew all becoming space pirates who went around raping the Delta Quadrant, you deserved to be disappointed.
Just assumed the show would be consistent within itself. If there was major damage throughout the interior of the ship, I didn't think it would be magically repaired next episode as nothing happened.
But then again, there is no debating with apologists. You'll always make excuses for anything that happens.
I only watched a little of Farscape, didn't care for it.
