"Angel's Destiny" or "Did Jasmine make it snow?"

[RoJoHen]

Let's talk about Angel's destiny. No, not the whole "vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in the Apocalypse" thing. I'm talking about the Season 4 Jasmine thing. But I want to go back further than that.

I recently finished re-watching Angel. When I was done, I had an urge to go all the way back to the beginning and start watching Buffy again. I'm currently in Season 3.

It's been my theory for a while now that The First and Jasmine were opposing forces in Season 7/Season 4 of Buffy and Angel. The First wanted to bring down total destruction and kill lots of things. Jasmine wanted to destroy Evil and bring about world peace. I even believe that Conner's vision of Darla was really The First trying to trick him to prevent Jasmine from being born.

I just watched the Buffy episode "Amends." This episode introduces us to The First and asks the question, "Why was Angel sent back from Hell?" This episode is absolutely fascinating to watch with the knowledge of what's to come in future seasons. Indeed, why was Angel sent back?

Angel infers that The First wants him to kill himself. But WHY? The First can't possibly care that much about a single vampire. Angel had to be something special for The First to try so hard.

It seems to me that The First was trying to get Angel out of the way so that Jasmine's plan would never succeed. Jasmine needed Angel alive (and would somehow arrange to bring Darla back) in order for Conner to be born. And just as Angel has given up hope and is about to let himself die, it starts to snow. Snow in southern California, a sign to Angel that anything is possible and that he should continue to go on living.

So my question is: did Jasmine, knowing that she needed Angel alive to achieve her goals, make it snow?

 

[ancientone51]

From a story/continuity point of view, there is some interesting thinking there that works as well as anything else. Nice idea.


Practically, you are giving the writers too much credit for long range planning and cooperation between shows.

 

[RoJoHen]

From a story/continuity point of view, there is some interesting thinking there that works as well as anything else. Nice idea.


Practically, you are giving the writers too much credit for long range planning and cooperation between shows.

Well, yeah, I know that the writers almost certainly didn't have this stuff planned out, but I still think it's cool that it worked out anyway.

 

[Anwar]

It could always just be a massive coincidence...

 

[RoJoHen]

It could always just be a massive coincidence...

You're no fun.

 

[DigificWriter]

I've always viewed Jasmine as Joss's equivalent to the Mortal Kombat character Shinnok, and believe that she merely appropriated her fellow PTB's plans for Angel in order to serve her own designs (she was clearly insane, and, in her own way, quite evil).

As far as the First goes, though, I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the First wanted Angel to kill himself. Everything that the First does in 'Amends' is geared towards getting Angel to kill Buffy (and presumably join its armies), and his decision to commit suicide in that ep is made in order to deprive it of what it wants. I do like the idea that it tried to go after people close to Angel, though, because we know that part of its machinations did extend as far as LA, what with someone trying to kill Faith in prison with a Bringer knife.

 

[RoJoHen]

I've always viewed Jasmine as Joss's equivalent to the Mortal Kombat character Shinnok, and believe that she merely appropriated her fellow PTB's plans for Angel in order to serve her own designs (she was clearly insane, and, in her own way, quite evil).

As far as the First goes, though, I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the First wanted Angel to kill himself. Everything that the First does in 'Amends' is geared towards getting Angel to kill Buffy (and presumably join its armies), and his decision to commit suicide in that ep is made in order to deprive it of what it wants. I do like the idea that it tried to go after people close to Angel, though, because we know that part of its machinations did extend as far as LA, what with someone trying to kill Faith in prison with a Bringer knife.

Having just watched it, I feel like The First wanted both Buffy AND Angel dead. If not, I don't think he would have guilt-tripped Angel with all the visions of people he had killed.

I just can't see The First bringing Angel back from Hell for just that reason. There had to have been easier plans to kill the Slayer. I just can't help thinking, knowing what I know now, that Jasmine had something to do with it.

As for Faith, that really didn't have anything to do with Angel. The Bringers were just going around killing slayers.

 

[DigificWriter]

It's clear - at least to me - that the Powers That Be brought Angel back from that hell dimension, although, because of what happened with Jasmine in LA, we never found out what they (the Powers) had in mind as per his (Angel's) destiny.

 

[RoJoHen]

Well, at the time, Jasmine was a PTB.

 

[DigificWriter]

I actually got the impression that her 'fall from grace', as it were, had happened a very long time ago (centuries, if not longer, prior to the events of ANGEL S4), and that she was merely taking credit - through Skip - for events that were actually set in motion by her fellow Powers, even though she herself was not present for those events.

 

[RoJoHen]

It's certainly possible. It is just weird to me watching Seasons 7 (Buffy) and 4 (Angel) and NOT thinking that these two "apocalypses" are related in some way. And if I can connect the dots all the way back to "Amends," then I think it makes the whole thing that much more epic.

I mean, I think it's cooler thinking that Jasmine brought Angel back for her purposes in Season 4 than to think that the PTB brought him back for something we never even got to see.

 

[DigificWriter]

The thing is, RoJo, something like the PTB bringing back Angel for a purpose that we (and they) ultimately never saw realized is entirely consistent with the way that Joss likes to operate; he'll make you think he's going in one direction that is predictable, and then go in an entirely different direction that surprises you.

BTW, Jasmine DOES take credit for bringing Angel back, which is a thread that is sort of touched on again in S5.

 

[RoJoHen]

The thing is, RoJo, something like the PTB bringing back Angel for a purpose that we (and they) ultimately never saw realized is entirely consistent with the way that Joss likes to operate; he'll make you think he's going in one direction that is predictable, and then go in an entirely different direction that surprises you.

That's all well and good, but what about it is predictable? It's only after having watched both shows through several times that I even made this connection. I'm sure it wasn't intended, and if the show had continued and another explanation was offered, I'd be all for it. As it is, I like to make my own connections.

 

[Ethros]

It's clear - at least to me - that the Powers That Be brought Angel back from that hell dimension

Same here. The PTB brought him back from Hell, the PTB made it snow so he wouldn't die in "Amends"

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It's been my theory for a while now that The First and Jasmine were opposing forces in Season 7/Season 4 of Buffy and Angel. The First wanted to bring down total destruction and kill lots of things. Jasmine wanted to destroy Evil and bring about world peace. I even believe that Conner's vision of Darla was really The First trying to trick him to prevent Jasmine from being born.

What about Wesley's vision of Lilah in "Salvage"? Some believe that, for at least the 2nd half of that sequence, Lilah was actually the First planting ideas in Wesley's head about breaking Faith out of prison.

As far as the First goes, though, I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the First wanted Angel to kill himself. Everything that the First does in 'Amends' is geared towards getting Angel to kill Buffy (and presumably join its armies), and his decision to commit suicide in that ep is made in order to deprive it of what it wants.

I'd agree that Angel committing suicide wasn't the First's first choice. "But it'll do." I think that, ideally, he wanted Angel to lose his soul, become Angelus again, kill Buffy, and lead the First's army. Moreso than Angel, Angelus seemed to be in very high demand by the dark powers. At one point, Lindsey said, "We don't want him dead. We want him dark." But if that wasn't possible, it was better for the First if Angel were dead than if he were alive & fighting for TPTB. Plus, perhaps by Angel killing himself, Buffy would then spiral into despair, which would lead to her death some other way.

I mean, I think it's cooler thinking that Jasmine brought Angel back for her purposes in Season 4 than to think that the PTB brought him back for something we never even got to see.

I think TPTB brought Angel back for exactly the reasons we saw in the 1st couple seasons of Angel. They needed Angel out there, fighting the good fight, and not for any specific apocalypse. I think TPTB were more concerned with W&H's ultimate apocalypse-- the gradual corruption of mankind. That's why TPTB brought Angel back. That's also why they sent him Doyle & Cordelia.

 

[Ethros]

It's been my theory for a while now that The First and Jasmine were opposing forces in Season 7/Season 4 of Buffy and Angel. The First wanted to bring down total destruction and kill lots of things. Jasmine wanted to destroy Evil and bring about world peace. I even believe that Conner's vision of Darla was really The First trying to trick him to prevent Jasmine from being born.

What about Wesley's vision of Lilah in "Salvage"? Some believe that, for at least the 2nd half of that sequence, Lilah was actually the First planting ideas in Wesley's head about breaking Faith out of prison.

Unlikely. Seen as the First tried to have Faith killed in the same episode (notice the Bringer knife)
Plus the scene totally loses meaning if it's not Wes on the edge