Angel - (My) First Impressions

[Hunter X]

See, though, I remember hearing that the plan for Illyria/Fred in season 6 was

Spoiler: spoilers

that Illyria and Fred were going to split into two, bringing Fred back and having Amy Acker playing both roles at the same time. So there was a cheat coming, allegedly.

Interesting. I'd never heard that rumor before. If we had gotten season six, I think going down that road would have been a mistake.

I was definitely surprised when I heard it, as it just seemed like it would take the "oomph" out of "A Hole in the World." The rumour is backed up here, at the bottom of the Wolfram & Hart section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winifred_Burkle#Wolfram_.26_Hart

(Obviously don't go there if you're avoiding spoilers. I'm looking at you, TooMuchFun)

 

[Too Much Fun]

I guess Illyria is okay. I'm relieved that she didn't end up just being the season's 'big bad' like a second Jasmine as I was initially anticipating. I appreciate the unique direction the writers took the character making her not just one of those evil God-like beings, but one that has fallen from grace in a way, with the same megalomaniac ambition and ego such villains tend to have, but lacking the knowledge and resources to achieve the goals it demands. She sort of reminds me of Anya in a way, specifically when Anya first lost her powers and would say stuff like, "When I get my powers back, you will all kneel before me!", arousing only apathy and amusement from those around her.

I also like Illyria's superiority complex about humans. It reminds me of '90s animated villains Darkseid from "Superman" and Apocalypse from "X-Men" who used to make me laugh with all their constant statements about how puny and pathetic humans are compared to them. Illyria calling the humans stuff like moss, apes, ants, etc. is pretty funny. So I can find a few things to admire about the character and I agree that it has really allowed Amy Acker to show her range as an actress, but I still have difficulty totally embracing it. On an objective level I recognize its merits, but I can't get involved in its arc emotionally, as I guess we're supposed to since we see how troubled she is. It's hard to find her a sympathetic character when I just miss Fred, and looking at her just reminds me how much I'd rather be following Fred's emotional journey rather than hers. Overall, to me she still feels like a disappointing replacement for Fred.

What's weird about the last half of season 5 (and I blame Illyria partially for this) is how aimless it feels. I'm not getting the excitingly foreboding vibe I got in the better early seasons where everything seemed to be building to some huge climax at the end. In previous seasons, I knew what the show was building towards, so I'd just get anxious to see how they resolve it. For example, showdowns with Holtz, the Pyleans, or Darla.

This time, I can't even guess what the big conflict will be at the end, since there's no clear single antagonist (the senior partners are hinted at, but have never been seen). Lindsey was brought back, but he doesn't seem to be as potentially dangerous as used to be either. They're hinting at Angel going all immoral again as he agrees to sacrifice a baby to some demons, but this twist doesn't have the freshness or impact of the similar twist in an earlier season where Angel fired his staff and started being all self-destructive and isolated.

While I'm grateful to the writers for not taking the predictable route of making the whole season lead to a showdown with Illyria, I also feel like all the time spent figuring what to do with her might have been better spent building towards a showdown with someone. There has been mention of an apocalypse, but that doesn't feel as ominous as it should. I'm not sure why. It might be because I'm a little burned out on apocalypses after how many times "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" did them.

There are only three episodes left and I'm not feeling as primed for some killer finale as I did towards the end of previous seasons (except season 4, where the arc bored me to that point where I just wanted everything to be over with fast). Maybe it's better that I'm so unsure of where this show is going. Perhaps I'll be surprised and blown away at the end, but since people say "The Girl In Question" is a more light-hearted episode, I'm assuming that means there are only two episodes to tie up all the loose ends in a serious dramatic fashion? This is a lot of work for two episodes to do. I hope the writers were up to it. I'll find out soon enough. I just have to get through the (infamous?) "The Girl In Question" and then shit gets real, right?

 

[label]

I had somewhat similar feelings about the "arc" of Season 5. When it's all said and done, I liked the finale (especially the very controversial ending) and appreciated what it meant, but I felt like the sort-of-lack of a Seasonal arc kind of hurt the last 2 episodes which felt sort of rushed and implausible, though they certainly gave it their best.

I hated the "Girl in question" as a total waste of one of the last 3 episodes that wasn't even that funny (<spit>, we shall speak of it no more. (you'll get that later.....)). How you'll feel about the finale in general and the final scene specifically will be very interesting I think.................

 

[RoJoHen]

Sadly, the pseudo-reboot of the show didn't really help Season 5. Lots of standalone episodes and no big story arc.

However, keep in mind that the show was ended prematurely. They were fully expecting to make a Season 6, so yeah, the end of the series happens kind of abruptly, and you may very well not like it.

It took me a while to warm up to the finale, but I did eventually realize that it makes a ton of sense, and I love how it conveys one of the overarching themes of the show: Evil is always around. You cannot ever truly defeat. But as long as there are people around to fight it, it will never be allowed to win.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I just have to get through the (infamous?) "The Girl In Question" and then shit gets real, right?

I'd say that's an accurate description, yes.

It's weird - we're at almost the exact same point in the show. I just watched "The Girl in Question" last night and tonight it's time for "Power Play" and, if I can convince the boyfriend, "Not Fade Away." The only difference is it's about my 50th time through.

 

[I am not Spock]

It took me a while to warm up to the finale, but I did eventually realize that it makes a ton of sense, and I love how it conveys one of the overarching themes of the show: Evil is always around. You cannot ever truly defeat. But as long as there are people around to fight it, it will never be allowed to win.

Yeah. Which is why I love that speech in the elevator with Holland Manners; and Angel's subsequent speech to Kate, in season two. It sums up the theme of Angel perfectly.

 

[PsychoPere]

"Not Fade Away," as far as I'm concerned, is right up there with The Shield's "Family Meeting," The Wire's "-30-," and Babylon 5's "Sleeping in Light" as one of the all-time great series finales, even though it wasn't intended to be one.

(Regarding Buffy, everyone should check out this clip from The Daily Show.)

 

[mimic]

My favorite part of Season 5 is the minor subplot with the escaped slave demon and the toner. I completely missed it the first time around.

 

[I am not Spock]

Yeah, I agree with some of the other posters here, that the only thing that really hurt season 5 for me was the lack of an overall arc. It was a great season in my opinion, it's just a shame their plan for the end of the season turned out to be the final season. So things kind of had to be rushed. The last couple of eps, whilst good, seem a wee bit rushed to me. Not their fault, I know. They didn't get a lot of notice to wrap up the show.

 

[PsychoPere]

Those last few episodes would've been like that even if the show had gone on to a sixth season. There was only one change from the original plan after the cancellation was announced.

Spoiler: Finale change

Wesley wasn't originally going to die from his wounds, but the writers decided to kill him off once they knew the show wasn't coming back.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I quite enjoyed "The Girl in Question", although I understand why some people here didn't. I reckon its spot in the season would have been better used on an episode that was part of a serialized final season arc, but I didn't think it was a complete waste. On the contrary, I found it to be an entertaining romp, and a welcome diversion prior to what I assume are going to be some heavy concluding episodes. It's good to have some lighthearted fare before things get really intense leading into the series finale (sort of like how "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" and "The Emperor's New Cloak" gave us comedic breathers before the war arc raced towards its resolution in DS9 season 7).

Also, while most of the episode felt like little more than a lark, I appreciate that it did accomplish some character development and tie up some loose ends by putting to rest the emotional baggage Spike and Angel were carrying about Buffy. I've always been a sucker for more light-hearted episodes, especially on shows that tend to be very dark thematically, and this was no exception. I was happy to see Andrew again (although him becoming such a 'player' seemed a bit far-fetched given his history) and the banter and bickering between Spike and Angel throughout the episode consistently amused me. I found their jealousy of The Immortal especially funny when Darla and Druscilla sing the praises of his remarkable libido in flashback.

The one comedic element I wasn't so crazy about was the Italian Wolfram & Hart boss. She was a terribly crude caricature with her cartoon-ish personality, silly accent, and absurdly gratuitous cleavage, and the other Italians around weren't much better. The more serious subplot was the only other thing in the episode that bothered me. Illyria assuming Fred's form for the benefit of Fred's parents and then trying to seduce Wes with it pissed me off about as much as it pissed off Wes. It was somewhat admirable how she spared Fred's parents some grief by doing this (even though her reasons are kinda selfish as she does it because she's sick of sensing human grief), but I object to the tactic on principle. I continue to be impressed with how completely Amy Acker buries herself in this character, convincingly altering her body language and speaking voice for it, but I still hate that it even exists since it keeps us from seeing 'the real' Fred. By teasing us with a glimpse of her, the writers just made me even more annoyed about Fred being killed off.

It's been really fascinating doing these reflections and then finding out after how similarly or differently I felt compared to the rest of you. It's always hard to predict because while some of you are on the same page as me, there are always some who had a completely different experience watching the same thing. I'm eager both to watch the last two episodes and to come back here after to talk about them and find out how similar or different our reactions were. It'll also be great to FINALLY be able to read through this thread without having to avoid spoilers! Thanks for continuing to contribute, folks. Back soon!

 

[C_Miller]

Those last few episodes would've been like that even if the show had gone on to a sixth season. There was only one change from the original plan after the cancellation was announced.

Spoiler: Finale change

Wesley wasn't originally going to die from his wounds, but the writers decided to kill him off once they knew the show wasn't coming back.

I actually heard a different story.

Spoiler: Finale Change

I heard that Alexis Denisoff was given a choice whether he wanted his character to die and he felt that it was a better service for his character if he were to die.

 

[saturn5]

Spoiler: Angel's series finale

I remember seeing a video sent by Joss to a convention and on the whiteboard behind him are the words 'Kill Wesley' so it may have always been on the cards, like losing Anya in Chosen we had to lose someone we cared about to make it count.

I liked the Girl in Question, it was nice comedy ep before the climactic darkness, lovely to see Angel get back to it's Buffy roots and worth it for the Italian head of WR&H's cleavage alone

 

[C_Miller]

Put that in spoiler tags now. He's not done.

 

[PsychoPere]

I actually heard a different story.

Spoiler: Finale Change

I heard that Alexis Denisoff was given a choice whether he wanted his character to die and he felt that it was a better service for his character if he were to die.

That's certainly possible. I had never heard that version before, only the one that I posted. Maybe it was a bit of both!

(Also, in your quote of saturn5 above, you'll want to add spoiler tags yourself - the board software will keep the original quote as is after the post is edited, so there will still be the possibility that Too Much Fun could see it in your post as well.)

EDIT: Nevermind, since Spiff took care of it!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

saturn5, please be mindful of spoilers for the end of the show when the point of a thread is that someone's just started watching it.

Put that in spoiler tags now. He's not done.

In the future, please don't quote spoilers.

Thanks, folks.

 

[C_Miller]

I quoted it? Oh man, I'm sorry. I wasn't thinking.

 

[saturn5]

saturn5, please be mindful of spoilers for the end of the show when the point of a thread is that someone's just started watching it.

Put that in spoiler tags now. He's not done.

In the future, please don't quote spoilers.

Thanks, folks.

My apologies What point are we up to?

 

[PsychoPere]

^ Read Too Much Fun's last post.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I too really don't have too much of a problem with "The Girl in Question." It's a fun little but of nonsense that we're not supposed to take all that seriously. My favourite moment is the tiny, brief 5-second clip of Spike and Drusilla in Italy in the '50s.

"Ciao." "Ciao." "Ciao." "Ciao." "Ciao."

I was happy to see Andrew again (although him becoming such a 'player' seemed a bit far-fetched given his history) and the banter and bickering between Spike and Angel throughout the episode consistently amused me.

Some people seem to think that Andrew walking off with two girls at the end means that he's "grown up" into a straight man instead of the obviously gay boy he'd been. I think the much more likely explanation is that they're simply part of the local troupe of Slayers and he's helping train them, or at least their chaperone.

The one comedic element I wasn't so crazy about was the Italian Wolfram & Hart boss. She was a terribly crude caricature with her cartoon-ish personality, silly accent, and absurdly gratuitous cleavage, and the other Italians around weren't much better.

Eh, I'm okay with it. Like I said, I don't think we're supposed to take it too seriously. I chuckle at the ransom exchange in the plaza. "You give us the money, we give you the head."

It was somewhat admirable how she spared Fred's parents some grief by doing this (even though her reasons are kinda selfish as she does it because she's sick of sensing human grief), but I object to the tactic on principle.

There's a theory that she was just experimenting with herself. She spent some time testing her physical boundaries sparring with Spike. Now with her physical strength reduced, she's testing her emotional boundaries, pushing at her connection with Wesley.

I think she is actually finding herself developing an emotional connection to Wesley, one she doesn't exactly understand and doesn't really know how to handle. Whatever reason she gives for changing herself for the Burkles, I think the real reason was to see the effect it had on Wesley.

There's also the link that both stories deal with men trying to deal with the idea of women they loved who just don't exist anymore. Spike and Angel spend all their time chasing after Buffy, but the Buffy they remember doesn't exist anymore. She's moved on. Similarly Wesley is still pining after Fred, and despite something that looks like her from a distance, it's not really the thing he remembers and loves.